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tomk80
SFN Regular

Netherlands
1278 Posts

Posted - 12/11/2004 :  10:19:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit tomk80's Homepage Send tomk80 a Private Message
Guys, take your example from the Netherlands
Third place (IIRC) on Math in the last OESO education research and happy students. Oh, we are so good. And we still use red pens to correct math homework.

Tom

`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll-
Edited by - tomk80 on 12/11/2004 10:20:19
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Siberia
SFN Addict

Brazil
2322 Posts

Posted - 12/11/2004 :  10:28:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Siberia's Homepage  Send Siberia an AOL message  Send Siberia a Yahoo! Message Send Siberia a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by tomk80

Guys, take your example from the Netherlands
Third place (IIRC) on Math in the last OESO education research and happy students. Oh, we are so good. And we still use red pens to correct math homework.


My professor uses pink pens. PINK. Glittery pink.
Ahem, anyway.

"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa

"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4955 Posts

Posted - 12/12/2004 :  13:02:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Rubicon95
There has been a persistant belief that education should build self esteem not well knowledge.

In one of my links, a teacher felt that using a red pen to mark wrong answers. It made the students feel they got it wrong. WTF?!?!


I think you're reading too much into the article and trying too hard to make it fit your theory that people now hold that "education should build self esteem not well knowledge."

According to the article, one educator was quoted as saying
quote:
"The red mark is associated with 'This is wrong,' and as you're trying to guide students in the revision process, it doesn't mean this is wrong. It's just here's what you can do better."


You may disagree, but there is some merit in som subjects to let students know that teachers are aiming for revision and improvement, and not black-and-white answers. An English composition class, for instance, tries to make students better writers through the constant revision of papers. Marking up a sentence in a way that notes bad spelling or problems with grammatical structure but still encourages revision and improvement (rather than demoralizes) is a good thing, no?

quote:
That is the attitude that has to be fought. Not everyone should go to college. Trade schools are valid institutions.


I'm not sure I see the connection. Still, should schools stive to destroy the egos of students? I'm not so sure. Should all student go to college? Probably not. Should trade schools be pushed more as viable alternatives? Absolutely.

quote:
It's just PC and cultural Marxism.


"Cultural marxism"? Sounds like some conservative code-speak. Explain this...
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Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend

USA
220 Posts

Posted - 12/13/2004 :  13:54:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Rubicon95 a Private Message
quote
-----
You may disagree, but there is some merit in some subjects to let students know that teachers are aiming for revision and improvement, and not black-and-white answers.
------

In some subjects that require achallenge or helps the thought process, I would agree. Gym being one, creative writing another. However, the thought in the article is that the color of the pen issue threatens the esteem of the student,and by their thinking, impairs the student. This I find to be hyper sensitive and ludicrious.

quote
------
Marking up a sentence in a way that notes bad spelling or problems with grammatical structure but still encourages revision and improvement (rather than demoralizes) is a good thing, no?
------

It is a good thing to encourage self-improvement. Mistakes, wrong choices and the consequences are part and parcel to improvement. I disagree with the perceived threat to a student's self esteem from a red marker. That kid has issues and needs a psych.

Your addition of demoralization to the argument, in my opinion, is an appeal to emotion and quite revealing.

quote
--------
Still, should schools strive to destroy the egos of students? I'm not so sure.
--------

Interesting, you brought up demoralization and destroying the ego. Kids are a lot tougher than they appear. By the way, would you ban honor roll because some students would feel inferior?

quote
---------
Should all student go to college? Probably not. Should trade schools be pushed more as viable alternatives? Absolutely
---------
We have an accord!

However suggesting to a student that they should not go to college could "demoralize" them.

quote
----------
“Cultural marxism"? Sounds like some conservative code-speak. Explain this...
-----------
Are you making a statement that I am a conservative or fishing for an answer?


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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4955 Posts

Posted - 12/13/2004 :  18:23:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Rubicon95
In some subjects that require achallenge or helps the thought process, I would agree. Gym being one, creative writing another. However, the thought in the article is that the color of the pen issue threatens the esteem of the student,and by their thinking, impairs the student. This I find to be hyper sensitive and ludicrious.


I don't think they were arguing that the color of the pen threatens a student's thinking. Instead, they were suggesting that certiain students, when faced with negative feed-back, may give up on trying to improve themselves by taking on a defeatest mentality.


quote:
quote
------
Marking up a sentence in a way that notes bad spelling or problems with grammatical structure but still encourages revision and improvement (rather than demoralizes) is a good thing, no?
------

It is a good thing to encourage self-improvement. Mistakes, wrong choices and the consequences are part and parcel to improvement. I disagree with the perceived threat to a student's self esteem from a red marker. That kid has issues and needs a psych.

Your addition of demoralization to the argument, in my opinion, is an appeal to emotion and quite revealing.


I'm glad that I can be revealing. And indeed, a student who reads too much into lots of red ink should get help-- perhaps through a school counselor-- to understand that it's not a bad thing.

quote:
quote
--------
Still, should schools strive to destroy the egos of students? I'm not so sure.
--------

Interesting, you brought up demoralization and destroying the ego. Kids are a lot tougher than they appear. By the way, would you ban honor roll because some students would feel inferior?


I'm glad my concern for a kid's ego is interesting to you. No, I'm not in favor of banning honor roll, or other awards. Personally, I'm not a fan of such things (I'd rather kids learn for learning's sake and not because they can be recognized on a list), but I don't think it should be banned. I'm tempted to comment that I think it's "interesting" that you're trying to twist my argument to make my position sound absurd, but I'm sure that's not the case.

quote:

---------
Should all student go to college? Probably not. Should trade schools be pushed more as viable alternatives? Absolutely
---------
We have an accord!

However suggesting to a student that they should not go to college could "demoralize" them.


Or perhaps you are. In any case, it would only demoralize if it were perceived that only worthy kids went to college, while unworthy kids were relegated to trade school. But since plenty of smart econ professors can't change their own oil or fix their plumbing, it's absurd to think that the econ professor is somehow superior to the mechanic.

quote:

----------
“Cultural marxism"? Sounds like some conservative code-speak. Explain this...
-----------
Are you making a statement that I am a conservative or fishing for an answer?


I'm sorry if I weren't clear. However, I've observed that whenever a person brings up the word "marxism" in such a negative light, it isn't used lightly. In regards to education, it seems to most often be used by politicians and thinkers who abhor the state of America's education because it isn't practical and rigorous enough. Such people hate the humanities and only find value in education if it has direct application to society. Engineers=good; English lit=bad. You may have had an entirely different thinking, but I don't know, hence my question.



[/quote]
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Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend

USA
220 Posts

Posted - 12/13/2004 :  23:05:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Rubicon95 a Private Message
I like your posts C.

I made a point to indicate your insertions. I've been reading the posts on this site and see that it is wise when things, and preceptions are added in, to point it out. Heck I am new at this. I am still learning about logical fallacies and appeals to emotion et al.

Actually, I believe we aren't too far apart in our views.

I am concerned about the state of education in USA. I see a trend towards dumbing down and lowering the bar. Each generation must build upon the last or else society doesn't grow.

Science is good. History are great (I am biased). The Humanities are a must. It just gives a well rounded human being

I just boggles my mind the short sightedness of gov't's, local and federal.

Case in point, the public library in Franklin, MA is going to be closed. Why? No money or should I say no willingness to spend money on it. This is the first public library in the US and it is going to be closed because some people believe that it is not necessary to spend extra 10 bucks in taxes.

Sorry OT rant, wanted to get it off my chest. Heck it's late and my wife is gonna kill me.

BTW, I do consider myself a conservative. No I didn't vote for Bush. There are conservatives who don't like what Bush is doing.
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Siberia
SFN Addict

Brazil
2322 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2004 :  04:38:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Siberia's Homepage  Send Siberia an AOL message  Send Siberia a Yahoo! Message Send Siberia a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist

Such people hate the humanities and only find value in education if it has direct application to society. Engineers=good; English lit=bad. You may have had an entirely different thinking, but I don't know, hence my question.


I beg to differ. I don't live in US; I don't know how it is over there. But at least here, in my very own piece of hell, the situation is the exact opposite.

Here, people favor what gives them status; most of those being humanities, so to speak, or the profession of the moment (right now, it's tourism). Admnistration, Economics, Law, even History are favored over, say, Engineering, and Engineering is favored over pure sciences - Math, Physics, Biology, etc. Especially among women. I say that by personal experience; you've got to see the look in people's faces when I say no, I'm not going to major in Literature, I'm going to major in Computer Science. Most people I know consider it too 'nerdy', too 'hard'.

"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa

"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4955 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2004 :  07:00:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Rubicon95

I like your posts C....

Actually, I believe we aren't too far apart in our views.

I am concerned about the state of education in USA. I see a trend towards dumbing down and lowering the bar. Each generation must build upon the last or else society doesn't grow.

Science is good. History are great (I am biased). The Humanities are a must. It just gives a well rounded human being


Hey, I like yours, too, Rubicon. And it's OK if you're "still new" at this!

So I've been thinking, and I think we're both going about this wrong. If you re-read the article, I think you'll find that the information is entirely anecdotal. Moreover, it's anecdotal from the teacher's perspective only-- if I recall correctly, no kids were interviewed.

So we actually have no way to know if purple pens do anything except make a few teachers feel better about grading. What we don't know is if a) the purple pen actually makes students feel better about their peformance, and b) encourages them to improve.

Without some studies to show this, our arguments are kind of silly. I like the idea of encouraging students to learn and improve upon their mistakes until they really grasp the material, but I have not idea if the purple pen thing does that at all!

What I really should have done is mentioned that it's an interesting idea to be studied, not that the idea on its own has merit. (How embarassing!!

I, too, worry about dumbing-down. However, I wonder if all the reports of low test scores aren't a product of something else, and not a generally dumber America. (Bear with me...)

Suppose that 30 years ago, you had 100 students. Of those, the smartest 25 took special college-entrance exams and averaged a score of 90. You then had the next 25 smartest also take the same exam but only average an 80. The next 25 didn't bother and went to trade schools, and the last 25 either never finished high school or went striaght to hourly low-skill jobs.

Then, suppose that last year you had 100 students. The smartest 25 took exams and scored a 95. Then next smartest took exams and scored an 85. The third 25 also took exams, but only scored a 70. And last 25 either went to trade school or didn't take exams.

If you looked at your scores from 30 years ago and today, you'd see that back then, scores (85) were higher then than now (83.3). But in reality, our students are doing better.

I'm not saying that this is exactly what has happened of the last 30 years (though I think something similar has happened), but it shows one example of how the data can be skewed.

quote:
BTW, I do consider myself a conservative. No I didn't vote for Bush. There are conservatives who don't like what Bush is doing.



Well, anyone who's frequented the forums here knows my stance on Bush. But as for your conservatism, that's fine. We accept (and want!) all ideological-political positions here at SFN!
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2004 :  07:25:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message
The American public school system is sad in many ways. Cheating by officials on standardized tests to prop your school district up is just one of them.

After I got failed grade for using the word 'crap' in a 5th grade creative writing assignment, I pretty much stopped doing homework. Also what disgusted me was the math teachers force you to do problems in one particualr way whether its the best way or not, because its easier for others to learn that way or to teach.

I was actively discouraged from finding better ways to solve problems because of the slow pace of others, not to mention doing math in your head, GOD FORBID! But thats just me...

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26020 Posts

Posted - 12/16/2004 :  21:19:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
Siberia, I’ve got no idea if you’ve read RIchard Feynman’s "Surely You’re Joking, Mr. Feynman!", but it includes a story called "O Americano, Outra Vez!" which is about Feynman’s adventures in Brazil, both as a physics professor and as a student of the frigideira. If I’m not mistaken, these trips of his happened back in the early 1960s (I can’t find a date within the story). But you might be interested in the story for its perception of Brazilian university education back then. Here’s a snippet:
In regard to education in Brazil, I had a very interesting experience. I was teaching a group of students who would ultimately become teachers, since at that time there were not many opportunities in Brazil for a highly trained person in science. These students had already had many courses, and this was to be their most advanced course in electricity and magnetism — Maxwell’s equations, and so on.

The university was located in various office buildings throughout the city, and the course I taught met in a building which overlooked the bay.

I discovered a very strange phenomenon: I could ask a question, which the students would answer immediately. But the next time I would ask the question — the same subject, and the same question, as far as I could tell — they couldn’t answer it at all! For instance, one time I was talking about polarized light, and I gave them all some strips of polaroid.

Polaroid passes only light whose electric vector is in a certain direction, so I explained how you could tell which way the light is polarized from whether the polaroid is dark or light.

We first took two strips of polaroid and rotated them until they let the most light through. From doing that we could tell that the two strips were now admitting list polarized in the same direction — what passed through one piece of polaroid could also pass through the other. But then I asked them how one could tell the absolute direction of polarization, for a single piece of polaroid.

They hadn’t any idea.

I knew this took a certain amount of ingenuity, so I gave them a hint: “Look at the light reflected from the bay outside.”

Nobody said anything.

Then I said, “Have you ever heard of Brewster’s Angle?”

“Yes, sir! Brewster’s Angle is the angle at which light reflected from a medium with an index of refraction is completely polarized.”

“And which way is the light polarized when it’s reflected?”

“The light is polarized perpendicular to the plane of reflection, sir.” Even now, I have to think about it; they knew it cold! They even knew the tangent of the angle equals the index!

I said, “Well?”

Still nothing. They had just told me that light reflected from a medium with an index, such as the bay outside, was polarized; they had even told me which way it was polarized.

I said, “Look at the bay outside, through the polaroid. Now turn the polaroid.”

“Ooh, it’s polarized!” they said.

After a lot of investigation, I finally figured out that the students had memorized everything, but they didn’t know what anything meant. When they heard “light that is reflected from a medium with an index,” they didn’t know that it meant a material such as water. They didn’t know that the “direction of light” is the direction in which you see something when you’re looking at it, and so on. Everything was entirely memorized, yet nothing had been translated into meaningful words. So if I asked, “What is Brewster’s Angle?” I’m going into the computer with the right keywords. But if I say “Look at the water,” nothing happens — they don’t have anything under “Look at the water”!

Later I attended a lecture at the engineering school. The lecture went like this, translated into English: “Two bodies… are considered equivalent… if equal torques… will produce… equal acceleration. Two bodies, are considered equivalent, if equal torques, will produce, equal accelerations.” The students were all sitting there taking dictation, and when the professor repeated the sentence, they checked it to make sure they wrote it down all right. Then they wrote down the next sentence, and on and on. I was the only one who knew the professor was talking about objects with the same moment of inertia, and it was hard to figure out.

I didn’t see how they were going to learn anything from that. Here he was talking about moments of inertia, but there was no discussion about how hard it is to push a door open when you put heavy weights on the outside, compared to when you put them near the hinge — nothing!

After the lecture, I talked to a student: “You take all those notes — what do you do with them?”

“Oh, we study them,” he says. “We’ll have an exam.”

“What will the exam be like?”

“Very easy. I can tell you now one of the questions.” He looks at his notebook and says, “‘When are two bodies equivalent?’ And the answer is, ‘Two bodies are considered equivalent if equal torques will produce equal acceleration.’” So, you see, they could pass the examinations, and “learn” all this stuff, and not know anything at all, except what they had memorized.
(Any typos present are mine.)

I hope things are different these days, especially since he wrote that at the end of that academic year, Feynman gave a lecture in which he asserted that the university wasn’t teaching any physics whatsoever, and the students and faculty both seemed to understand and agree with his points.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Starman
SFN Regular

Sweden
1613 Posts

Posted - 12/17/2004 :  03:17:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Starman a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

Feynman gave a lecture in which he asserted that the university wasn't teaching any physics whatsoever, and the students and faculty both seemed to understand and agree with his points.
Well at least they are sure to have memorized it....
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 12/17/2004 :  04:32:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
I don't recall what grade I was in but we were assigned a book report on any book we wanted. Now, my mother had always encouraged me to read; she didn't care what, as long as I was doing it. So when the others were delving into the Hardy Boys, and so forth, I was reading the exciting pulp of Mickey Spillane. I wrote the report on his Kiss Me, Deadly.

I worked hard on it, as one will when something captures his focus. In due course, I turned it in.

The next day, I was called up to the teacher's desk and she told me that it was the best report she'd seen in a long time, but had given it an F, because of subject matter and I was being sent to talk to the principle about it. He was not impressed with Mike Hammer, either.

The result of that was I was assigned a book -- don't remember what it was because I never read it -- and was told to have a report on it in a week. That report was not forthcoming, getting me into deeper shit, and getting my mother involved. Finally, after a whole big deal, I was back into everybody's good graces. But I still kept the F because there was no way I was going to read that pablum I'd been assigned.

And true, I was a snotty, little brat to start with.

That is what first soured me on the American educational system. More reasons were soon to follow, and continue to this day...


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Siberia
SFN Addict

Brazil
2322 Posts

Posted - 12/17/2004 :  04:40:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Siberia's Homepage  Send Siberia an AOL message  Send Siberia a Yahoo! Message Send Siberia a Private Message
That's very, very interesting, Dave.

I can't say for sure if it's changed or not. I, personally, try to understand what I'm told (main reason why my classmates are rather surprised when I tell them I don't need to study for exams), but I'm pretty much sure most people I know, in my class, don't have a clue about what they're learning. Then again, I study in a spoiled rich people college (I'm not rich, but hey), where most people study because daddy told them so, and have no interest whatsoever in actually learning something. So, the easy way is to parrot something out, or cheat.

Oh well.

"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa

"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Renae
SFN Regular

543 Posts

Posted - 12/17/2004 :  06:48:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Renae a Private Message
Great thread. Thanks, everyone.

My mass media teacher (not prof, teacher) in college used a green pen on our papers. She said it was because she didn't feel right using a red pen...she didn't feel that she was "above" us. She had a very collaborative, informal teaching style. (Ed. note: If I recall, she did an analysis of a Madonna video from a Marxist standpoint. I had an interesting education)

Part of the problem with education in America, IMO, is contempt for higher education. Bush didn't start this contempt for the "liberal intellectual elite", but he certainly feeds it. I wish being smart, studying hard, and going to university would be seen as "cool", but in many segments of our culture, it's not.

A kid's self-esteem is important, though. By the time I made it through high school Chemistry (with an A, BTW), I was so traumatized by higher-level science that I was terrified to try Physicis. My science education would have ended there (except that I took Geology at university.) I didn't have the belief that I could do hard science...and perhaps I was right. But self-concept is important, IMO.

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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 12/17/2004 :  07:08:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
No, I'm not in favor of banning honor roll, or other awards. Personally, I'm not a fan of such things (I'd rather kids learn for learning's sake and not because they can be recognized on a list), but I don't think it should be banned.
This is the challenge for parents. To instill a love of learning in their children. I beleive this is the parents responsibility. It is not easy, and each child is different. The problem is how to do it.

My parents were interested in a letter grade. A's and B's on the report card everything was fine. I took two years of French in high school, all A's, and cannot speak but three words of French. They did not know if I was learning or not or if I could think for myself. It wasn't until college that I found out that learning was fun. I am not bashing on my parents, they are good people, but they did not take an active role in my education as alot of parents today do not.

I guess my point is that if a child is shown that learning is fun then they should do alright for themselves on their own. Nothing builds self esteem better than getting the correct answer.
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