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deleted
7 Posts |
 Posted - 01/06/2005 : 18:18:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verlch
[quote]Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
The conspiracy is that hey brainwash americans into thinking they are the pinnacle of society when in fact we are below average in most catagories such as math, science, general knowledge, linguistics, human rights, % of general shitheads.
BPS is American BTW.
Import more Jews to make up the difference....They are smart.
Import? Are they some kind of commodity now? Who is the importer? |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2005 : 19:54:05 [Permalink]
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What's a conspiracy: two or more people agreeing together to enact something to the detriment of others. Conspiracy behind our education system! Certainly not! Let's see, we have teacher's unions, local, state, and federal guidelines. So we have people agreeing about education, but surely not to the detriment of our students... Depends on your point of view. "One man's garbage is another man's treasure"
Teaching methods are learned...are taught in college by professors to students. The graduates who teach use these methods for the most part. Does this have anything to do with the dumbing down of our educational system? Maybe. Is it the methods, the subject, the teachers, the environment for learning, the discipline or lack thereof, the attitudes of teachers and parents? Yes, all of the above. But what is it that specifically promotes critical thinking in schools and in public? Well, just thinking might be a start. Thinking about any and everything. Asking why, not just how, asking for what reason, not just where and by whom. That being said, I must say that politically and religiously correct thinking and promotion of the same in society is what I believe to be one of the worst hindrances to critical thinking. Accepting the statis quo and not questioning why is definitely not helping.
And then there is purpose. To what purpose or end are we doing what we are doing? What is our goal? Is the goal to achieve some test score to pass a test, or to actually learn some aspect of science or life?
With all the regulations to promote learning you'd think things would be getting better, but consider the stifling of free thought within schools.
Talking about religion by teachers is a taboo subject, yet it is of great interest to most students. Discussing these important issues that affect morality, lifestyle, and your ultimate world view is a thing of the past in America, forbidden speech. Today we are free to discuss anything about sex or reproduction or pleasure, or serial killers, or witchcraft or whatever comes into your mind...except religion. "You're breaking the Constitution by talking about religion" one student told a teacher. That teacher was called to the office for his "inappropriate" comments on what the Easter holiday was all about. Inappropriate to discuss a national religious holiday with students...hmmmm. But let's "freely" talk about anything else. Let's have "free thought...let's become critical thinkers". Yeah, right. It is a conspiracy and many of you are involved and don't even know it...or do you? Now the professors, and judges, and systems that teach teachers this anti religious attitude, do they know what they are doing? Some of them do. Are they organized. You bet. So is it a conspiracy?
Dave W. quoted Thomas Jefferson
…But our rulers can have authority over such natural rights only as we have submitted to them. The rights of conscience we never submitted, we could not submit. We are answerable for them to our God. The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. … Reason and free enquiry are the only effectual agents against error. Give a loose to them, they will support the true religion, by bringing every false one to their tribunal, to the test of their investigation. They are the natural enemies of error, and of error only. Had not the Roman government permitted free enquiry, Christianity could never have been introduced. Had not free enquiry been indulged, at the aera of the reformation, the corruptions of Christianity could not have been purged away. If it be restrained now, the present corruptions will be protected, and new ones encouraged…
— Jefferson, Thomas, 1743-1826 . Notes on the State of Virginia
Without the "free inquiry" to religion allowed in public schools, how is it that we think critical thinking, as it is called today, can flourish in science and all disciplines? Note what Jefferson says, "But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god." So why do so many today think they are "injured" to hear someone tell about God from their viewpoint? Jefferson didn't think any injury resulted from such conversation. "The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others." So why has our government, our court in particular, extended their power into the classroom to forbid religious talk?
"Reason and free enquiry are the only effectual agents against error... If it be restrained now, the present corruptions will be protected, and new ones encouraged…" |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2005 : 22:12:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
Without the "free inquiry" to religion allowed in public schools, how is it that we think critical thinking, as it is called today, can flourish in science and all disciplines?
Do you honestly think that elementary school children are properly equiped by their teachers to think critically about religion?quote:
Note what Jefferson says, "But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god." So why do so many today think they are "injured" to hear someone tell about God from their viewpoint?
We don't. We (and Jefferson) felt it to be injurious to have the government tell us about god from its viewpoint.quote:
Jefferson didn't think any injury resulted from such conversation.
And neither to I.quote:
"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others." So why has our government, our court in particular, extended their power into the classroom to forbid religious talk?
They have not. This is your anti-atheist bigotry exposing itself yet again. Students and teachers both are free to talk about religion all they like, except that it is impermissible (by the First Amendment) for a teacher to propose that any particular religious viewpoint is "correct" (including that of atheism). If a student asks what a teacher thinks about an afterlife, it is perfectly acceptable for the teacher to say, "well, I as a Christian, I think that good people go to Heaven." It is not permitted for a teacher to respond with "all religious ideas about an afterlife are false, period. Forget them."
That is what the courts think of the First Amendment. But you're not arguing against that, you're arguing against some wimpy strawman which claims that the courts have outlawed any mention of religion at all. If so, "comparative religion" classes should not exist in state-run colleges, but they do. Your ideas about what the courts have decided are simply and demonstrably wrong, Doomar. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2005 : 07:07:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
quote:
So why has our government, our court in particular, extended their power into the classroom to forbid religious talk?
Hell, we read Genesis in my senior high school English class.
And I truly doubt you've been equally exposed to, say, Hinduism. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2005 : 08:25:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by the_ignored
This is both ironic and sad: This is from of all places, The Coast to Coast AM website right now:
quote:
Legendary teacher and reformer, John Taylor Gatto, looks at our classrooms and how they are evolving generations that may not contribute to a healthy society in the future.
Ever think that it's because of all the bullshit and censorship of science and lack of teaching of critical thinking skills that's being spread around by both the religious right and just plain goofballs like art bell et al?
Nope. The Business of Schooling...quote:
Since bored people are the best consumers, school had to be a boring place, and since childish people are the easiest customers to convince, the manufacture of childishness, extended into adulthood, had to be the first priority of factory schools. Naturally, teachers and administrators weren't let in on this plan; they didn't need to be. If they didn't conform to instructions passed down from increasingly centralized school offices, they didn't last long.
Sweet crap. You know, this guy may have a point, but I think it's more likely that it happened "by accident" than that there's a conspriacy behind it...At least I hope so!
I read a book or an article somewhere that claimed the US public school system is not designed to produce personally optimized, free-thinking and capable individuals. It's designed to produce people with limited free-thinking capability and just enough skills to be good worker bees. It's designed to dampen creativity and innovation and to condition you to do what your boss tells you with minimal question. If anyone's interested in the source, I'd have to dig for it....let me know. |
-Chaloobi
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2005 : 09:12:34 [Permalink]
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I just met with a client who cannot read. It happens at least once every couple of months - probably more, as some pass it off with things like, "I forgot my glasses. Will you read this to me?" I didn't ask him if he is a high school graduate, but many like him have told me they are.
What chaps my ass about the whole politically correct nurturing of children's egos (besides the fact that they graduate unable to read and write) is that it now goes so far (here, at least) it results in reverse discrimination.
At the end of the school year last year I attended "Awards Day" at my children's school. Two of my three children are on the Honor Roll (the other is still in ungraded primary). Honor students got paper certificates acknowledging their accomplishments. I have no problem with that. The knowledge is their reward. What made me furious is that the "problem" students (students who create such disruption in the classroom they have to be taught separately) received televisions, DVD players, radios, and stereos as rewards for achievements such as "Most Improved".
What the hell kind of message does that send to children who work hard all the time? I watched the faces of the student body as these rewards were passed out, and to me, they looked confused. |
Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2005 : 10:23:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Wendy
At the end of the school year last year I attended "Awards Day" at my children's school. Two of my three children are on the Honor Roll (the other is still in ungraded primary). Honor students got paper certificates acknowledging their accomplishments. I have no problem with that. The knowledge is their reward. What made me furious is that the "problem" students (students who create such disruption in the classroom they have to be taught separately) received televisions, DVD players, radios, and stereos as rewards for achievements such as "Most Improved".
Shiiit, that's weird. Heck, for such reward even I would be a problem kid. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2005 : 10:59:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar_
quote:
Originally posted by verlch
[quote]Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
The conspiracy is that hey brainwash americans into thinking they are the pinnacle of society when in fact we are below average in most catagories such as math, science, general knowledge, linguistics, human rights, % of general shitheads.
BPS is American BTW.
Import more Jews to make up the difference....They are smart.
Import? Are they some kind of commodity now? Who is the importer?
Please remember you are talking to verlch. He's quite the whack job. I wouldn't doubt that he'd suggest that certian races are commodities and that you can obtain them for a price from the evil Freemason Illuminati. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2005 : 11:18:18 [Permalink]
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| Well Duh! Everyone knows that, The capital hill owl will give you the password. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2005 : 22:24:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
....... Depends on your point of view. "One man's garbage is another man's treasure"
.....Asking why, not just how, asking for what reason, not just where and by whom. That being said, I must say that politically and religiously correct thinking and promotion of the same in society is what I believe to be one of the worst hindrances to critical thinking. Accepting the status quo and not questioning why is definitely not helping.
And then there is purpose. To what purpose or end are we doing what we are doing? What is our goal? Is the goal to achieve some test score to pass a test, or to actually learn some aspect of science or life?
With all the regulations to promote learning you'd think things would be getting better, but consider the stifling of free thought within schools.
Talking about religion by teachers is a taboo subject, yet it is of great interest to most students. Discussing these important issues that affect morality, lifestyle, and your ultimate world view is a thing of the past in America, forbidden speech. Today we are free to discuss anything about sex or reproduction or pleasure, or serial killers, or witchcraft or whatever comes into your mind...except religion. "You're breaking the Constitution by talking about religion" one student told a teacher. That teacher was called to the office for his "inappropriate" comments on what the Easter holiday was all about. Inappropriate to discuss a national religious holiday with students...hmmmm. But let's "freely" talk about anything else. Let's have "free thought...let's become critical thinkers". Yeah, right. It is a conspiracy and many of you are involved and don't even know it...or do you? Now the professors, and judges, and systems that teach teachers this anti religious attitude, do they know what they are doing? Some of them do. Are they organized. You bet. So is it a conspiracy?
.........
Without the "free inquiry" to religion allowed in public schools, how is it that we think critical thinking, as it is called today, can flourish in science and all disciplines? Note what Jefferson says, "But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god." So why do so many today think they are "injured" to hear someone tell about God from their viewpoint? Jefferson didn't think any injury resulted from such conversation. "The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others." So why has our government, our court in particular, extended their power into the classroom to forbid religious talk?
"Reason and free inquiry are the only effectual agents against error... If it be restrained now, the present corruptions will be protected, and new ones encouraged…"
First let me say, your description of the supposed stifled thinking in schools because religious teachings are avoided is nonsense. If there is a lack of critical thinking taught in schools I'd say it's often because the teachers themselves lack critical thinking skills.
OTOH, many teachers are very good and some schools teach some kids very well.
But back to your main theme that somehow allowing religion to be introduced in public schools will correct some deficiency, from your post it is pretty clear it is the Christian god and the Bible you want taught or at least discussed as having the merit of truth. Suppose I was a teacher and I taught a class on critical thinking about the Bible. Here's what I'd teach:
The Bible is full of discrepancies, inconsistencies, cruelty, incest, bigotry, and myth. There is nothing in the Bible that stands out as better nor worse than any of the thousands of myths each culture has, some religious, some just stories passed on generation to generation.
Historical evidence indicates the Bible was originally written by men in the area of the world we now call the Middle East. The stories have roots in African cultures and followed humans along known migration routes. Many populations had migrated out of Africa to other parts of the world before the texts were written which were later compiled into the Bible. Since the writers of the Bible were unaware of these other populations, the content of the Bible leaves out the entire rest of the world. They only included the part of the world known to them, which is evidence only men were involved in writing the Bible. In other words, if the Bible was a true account of a god and the world, one would expect the entire world to be included and it wasn't.
The stories of creation and world floods etc. have all been discounted by scientific evidence so we know these are myths just as other myths like Zeus from Greek stories and Pele from Hawaiian stories.
If one were to take a critical look at Jesus, (assuming he was a real person as there is some evidence he either did not exist or at least wasn't a huge figure until after his death), it would seem there are many analogies in the modern world that explain the supposed miracles and cult following. It is easy, even today for charlatans to fool the less educated into believing some miracle happened which was really only a trick. Many people today still gather followers, sometimes even very in large numbers like Joseph Smith of the Mormons. This line of critical thinking could be very extensive.
And in social studies I would allow critical thinking to explore why humans are 'moral' from cultural evolution of living in groups and examine why it is religious people seem to think morals come from fear of going to hell which is clearly silly.
So, Doomar, How do you think the Christians would take my teaching critical thinking to their children? |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2005 : 00:14:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
But back to your main theme that somehow allowing religion to be introduced in public schools will correct some deficiency, from your post it is pretty clear it is the Christian god and the Bible you want taught or at least discussed as having the merit of truth.
Beskeptigal, the "history" of this discussion with Doomar lies in the thread "Judicial Activism or Judicial Restraint?" |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2005 : 11:41:29 [Permalink]
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They have not. This is your anti-atheist bigotry exposing itself yet again. Students and teachers both are free to talk about religion all they like, except that it is impermissible (by the First Amendment) for a teacher to propose that any particular religious viewpoint is "correct" (including that of atheism). If a student asks what a teacher thinks about an afterlife, it is perfectly acceptable for the teacher to say, "well, I as a Christian, I think that good people go to Heaven." It is not permitted for a teacher to respond with "all religious ideas about an afterlife are false, period. Forget them."
I see, so a teacher must keep their opinion wholely to themselves?
"It is impossible to calculate the moral mischief, if I may so express it, that mental lying has produced in society. When a man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind, as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime." Thomas Paine - the age of reason |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
| Edited by - Doomar on 01/09/2005 11:52:21 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2005 : 11:56:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
I see, so a teacher must keep their opinion wholely to themselves. Right, that's freedom of speech in your mind. What a joke. What you define as "freedom", others call restrictions.
You're an idiot. But we knew that already.
What we are saying is that the teachers and schools don't have the right to include mandatory religious activity/s. They don't have the right to proselytize.
They can hold any belief they care to.
Lets flip the coin around here....
Say that a local gradeschool teacher is a muslim, one of a radical sect. Do you think it would be OK for that teacher to teach your children that suicide bombing against civillian targets is a valid method, and that anyone who did so would be well rewarded in the afterlife?
You'd lose your freakin mind if you had a child come home from school one day saying "Praise Allah! Pass the Dynamite!"
Or, say (more likely in the US) that the local gradeschool teacher was an atheist and the school had some mandatory teaching that included a skeptical examination of various religious beliefs. You'd come unglued.
You know damn well that your "interpretation" of the establishment clause is nothing more than an attempt to justify your desire to include the christian religion in as much of the governing of this country as possible. You have demonstrated repeatedly in recent posts that you are highly ignorant and prejudiced against all who do not believe as you do.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2005 : 14:34:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Doomar wrote:
I see, so a teacher must keep their opinion wholely to themselves?
Read what Dave said again (emphasis mine):
quote:
If a student asks what a teacher thinks about an afterlife, it is perfectly acceptable for the teacher to say, "well, I as a Christian, I think that good people go to Heaven." It is not permitted for a teacher to respond with "all religious ideas about an afterlife are false, period. Forget them."
A teacher may state an opinion, as long as it is clear that it is just that, the teacher's opinion, and neither recognized fact nor a part of the approved cirriculum.
quote:
"It is impossible to calculate the moral mischief, if I may so express it, that mental lying has produced in society. When a man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind, as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime." Thomas Paine - the age of reason
You should quote the rest of the paragraph:
quote:
He takes up the trade of a priest for the sake of gain, and, in order to qualify himself for that trade, he begins with a perjury. Can we conceive anything more destructive to morality than this?
Paine had little use for the christian bible or the practice of christianity.
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The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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