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verlch
SFN Regular

781 Posts

Posted - 12/12/2004 :  02:40:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send verlch an AOL message Send verlch a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by filthy

quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

quote:
Originally posted by filthy

One of these got tired of walking, eh? I figgered that might happen sooner or later.
That is freaky-cool. What's it called?

It's called a sea robin, I don't have the Latin at hand. They're found all along the east coast and I have caught many fishing not far off shore. They're quite good eating, although not many people do.

They are strong swimmers, but mostly they spend their time crawling along the bottom on 'legs' evolved from a part of the pectoral fin. Their food is shrimps, small fish, small crabs and so forth -- the usual for a fish that averages perhaps a little over a pound of so in weight.

I agree: cool fish, but the pic doesn't do it justice. They're very colorful, a sort of mottled orange and red. Some I've seen were brillent.





I can almost see the 25,000 miles of blood vessels and 36 ft. of intestinge and the liver that does 500 functions in the human body in that one fish! So the fish walks around? I can see the ankles, knees and thumbs in those straight leges! Unbelievable the detail! It makes complete sense!

What came first the chicken or the egg?

How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?

There are no atheists in foxholes

Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4

II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!

Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?

Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.

We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.

"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 12/12/2004 :  04:18:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by verlch

quote:
Originally posted by filthy

quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

quote:
Originally posted by filthy

One of these got tired of walking, eh? I figgered that might happen sooner or later.
That is freaky-cool. What's it called?

It's called a sea robin, I don't have the Latin at hand. They're found all along the east coast and I have caught many fishing not far off shore. They're quite good eating, although not many people do.

They are strong swimmers, but mostly they spend their time crawling along the bottom on 'legs' evolved from a part of the pectoral fin. Their food is shrimps, small fish, small crabs and so forth -- the usual for a fish that averages perhaps a little over a pound of so in weight.

I agree: cool fish, but the pic doesn't do it justice. They're very colorful, a sort of mottled orange and red. Some I've seen were brillent.





I can almost see the 25,000 miles of blood vessels and 36 ft. of intestinge and the liver that does 500 functions in the human body in that one fish! So the fish walks around? I can see the ankles, knees and thumbs in those straight leges! Unbelievable the detail! It makes complete sense!

Do you also see it building a bicycle?

Ah verlch, verlch. You are surrounded by the forest, but cannot appreciate it's beauty 'cause all them damn' trees are in the way.

Dave, I don't know. The pic I posted was taken in NJ waters and the ones I've experience with were caught farther south, mainly off the Carolinas. It's always been an accidental catch. I have noticed a fair amount variation in color, and like many (most?) boney fishs it might have the ability to intensify it's colors and patterns, and does so during the spawning season.

Croaking is fairly common. Many species do it and some are named for it. Croakers (of course), drums, grunts, and so forth. As for the gill covers, I'd forgotten about those. I should have remembered, having had a hand bloodied up by them a couple of times. But but spined gill covers are also (too!) common.

It's been a lot of years since I've seen a 'robin -- been a fair number since I've gone off shore. Maybe again, someday.

All of this has been off the top of my head, after finding the pic. Now, as this animal seems to have attracted some unexpected interest and attention, I'll go back and open the links posted, and generally check it out more closely.

Edited to add that there is also the distinct possibility that my memory is not working all that well. Later today, I'll do some study.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Edited by - filthy on 12/12/2004 05:17:13
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 12/12/2004 :  04:40:04   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
Neat pics, Dave. One link was forbidden and I assume it was a snap of the submarine, USS Sea Robin. Coincidently, in the early '60s, I was stationed in the diving locker at the sub base at Groton CN. I seem to recall that it was one of the WW-II vintage, conventional boats there at that time. I don't really remember, but I may have worked on it.

Those were indeed, some pretty drab little guys, so there must be a lot of variation, allowing for photographic inconsistencies and fish-out-of-water, color changes. I've never seen one that looked like the little beauty from FL, though. I'd certainly like to.

The armored sea robin too sounds interesting.

Edited: I just did a quick look-around and found that there are a lot of species spread out almost world wide, pretty much in warm and temperate waters.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Edited by - filthy on 12/12/2004 05:26:59
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular

USA
1191 Posts

Posted - 12/12/2004 :  06:30:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send R.Wreck a Private Message
quote:
[insert fish pun here]



The mother of all piscene punsters.

Starts out:

quote:
It was April the forty-first, being a quadruple leap year. I was driving in downtown Atlantis. My barracuda was in the shop so I was in a rented stingray, and it was overheating. So I pulled into a Shell station. They said I'd blown a seal. I said "Fix the damn thing and leave my private life out of it, OK, pal?"



and just keeps swimming along.

The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley

The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 12/12/2004 :  08:28:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
That was horrible!

I love it..........




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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verlch
SFN Regular

781 Posts

Posted - 12/12/2004 :  15:05:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send verlch an AOL message Send verlch a Private Message
That fish had a bald spot also! Do you think there is any hair growth for that? You could call it growing hair for fishes as they transform into functioning humans!

What came first the chicken or the egg?

How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?

There are no atheists in foxholes

Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4

II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!

Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?

Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.

We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.

"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 12/13/2004 :  12:07:08   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message
Your ignorace is unmeasurable V., truly a wonder of science.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 12/13/2004 :  13:33:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
Another thread that might have been of considerable interest, gone to hell. And I am at least partly responsible.

Apologies, guys.

Tool use in nature is, if not common, really not all that rare. My break-bone bird's feeding habit, and this is the only vulture that carries objects with it's feet, is echoed by seagulls, herring gulls, if I'm not mistaken, habit of dropping shellfish on rocks in much the same way.

Of course, we should have a definition of 'tool.' In Africa, the honey guide, a bird, will lead a badger relitive (forgotten which one) to a bee's nest. The mammal will open the nest to get the honey, and the bird get's to feast on bee larvae. Who is using who, here?

A gastrolith might be considered a tool. Crocodilians swallow stones of just the right size to help break up their food and thus aid digestion. In FL, resident alligators have ingested golf balls, to the startled dismay of the players.

In Japan, macque monkeys that are fed grain on a beach have learned to wash a handful of it in the sea to remove the sand.

If viewed on a broad scale, the list of tool users is quite long.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 12/13/2004 :  15:04:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
quote:
Of course, we should have a definition of 'tool.' In Africa, the honey guide, a bird, will lead a badger relitive (forgotten which one) to a bee's nest. The mammal will open the nest to get the honey, and the bird get's to feast on bee larvae. Who is using who, here?



I've seen something like this in a video, except it was with humans. The bird would lead the person to a bee's nest, and the person would break off part of it and leave it for the bird.

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 12/13/2004 :  15:11:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
We might get this thing back on track yet. Here's something I just found:

quote:
But tool use is by no means unique to man. Primatologists have presented convincing evidence that chimpanzees exhibit a fairly sophisticated capacity to modify sticks for use in foraging. A survey of the animal kingdom shows that use of naturally occurring items as tools is not even confined to more evolved species. Wasps, for example, have been observed using sticks to tamp mud, according to University of Vermont biologist Bernd Heinrich, Ph.D., author of Ravens in Winter.

The manufacture of tools for a specific purpose, however, is something generally associated with man.

Now comes Gavin Hunt, Ph.D., of Massey University in New Zealand with an intriguing report on the manufacture and use of tools by crows. The report was published in the January 18 issue of the journal Nature.

While tool use among birds is not unheard of, Hunt's New Caledonian crows, close kin to American crows, were observed employing two distinctly different kinds of tools to forage for invertebrates such as insects, centipedes, and larvae. Such specialization in tool manufacture has not heretofore been observed in nonhuman animals, according to Hunt.

The observations occurred between November 1992 and March 1995 in New Caledonia, a group of islands 900 miles northeast of Australia. Hunt observed both manufacture and use of a hooked tool made by plucking and stripping a barbed twig. He also observed the use, but not manufacture, of what he described as a "stepped cut tool" with serrated edges. He did, however, observe and photograph leaves from which crows had started to cut such stepped tools.

I begin to wonder; is tool use, very simple tools, more common in birds than mammals?


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Starman
SFN Regular

Sweden
1613 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2004 :  00:42:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Starman a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

Let's see if Google is our friend...

Google is indeed our friend. Check out this cool auto completion beta : Google Suggest .

Hey its not really OT! Google is a tool and I'm a primate, and even a monkey in the cladistic sense. (Well I'm in the same clade as monkeys.)

[I really need a monkey smiley]
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2004 :  02:08:49   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
I found one! A tool using mammal that is not a primate! And I'll be damned if it's not our old friend, the naked mole rat.

quote:
Tool use has been observed in naked mole rats by US researchers in 1998. The animals hold a piece of tuber or wood in their mouths when gnawing anything that produces dust. This 'mask' lessens the amount of dust inhaled.



And whilst we're about it, here's the woodpecker finch, one of the famous Darwin's finches, of the Galapagos Islands:

quote:
Tool-use is widespread among animals, but except in primates the development of this behaviour is poorly known. Here, we report on the first experimental study to our knowledge of the mechanisms underlying the acquisition of tool-use in a bird species. The woodpecker finch Cactospiza pallida, endemic to the Galapagos Islands, is a famous textbook example of tool-use in animals.


It would seem that tool use in mammals other than primates is actually quite rare and only rudimentry at best. The mole rat was the only one I've found thus far. But this animal is such an odd-ball to start with -- living in a hive society like ants, poor thermoregulation, and so forth -- that it should come as small suprise.

I did an essay on them in another thread. I missed the tool-use in the research. Sloppy. Very sloppy. :embarrased:


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2004 :  06:06:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message
Whats more important about the primates tool use is the potential for further development. They have hands which conceivably could develop into more refined tool use, while birds are stuck with beaks and claws.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2004 :  07:18:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf

Whats more important about the primates tool use is the potential for further development. They have hands which conceivably could develop into more refined tool use, while birds are stuck with beaks and claws.

Yeh. I suppose the avian foot could evolve to be more flexible and perhaps the wings of ratites, but it all seems pretty unlikely.

Parrots and their kin have very dexterous feet and some, wild parrots in Australia, are known to 'play' with small objects. Tool use is known in captive African grey parrots, but I haven't been able to find anything about it in their natural habitate.

What this thread has got me to thinking is that it's remarkable that more mammals haven't taken up tool use. Raccoons of various species, oposumms, the weasle family all heve quite dexterous fore paws and opossums actually have an opposable thumb on the hind foot. Even bears can grasp, albeit stiffly.

Curious, no?


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2004 :  07:35:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
quote:
Even bears can grasp, albeit stiffly.


Met a bear once on a campout when I was 5. The damn thing came into our camp, and it was smart. I mean really smart. We had a plastic cooler, it was about 1 inch thick plastic. With one swing of its paw, it hit exactly where it needed to and completely destroyed the lock. The bear popped it right open and started to chow down.

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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