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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
 Posted - 02/10/2005 : 18:44:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
I started with Creation88, but I plan on making a habit of asking people whose anti-abortion stance is Biblically founded, "so, how is it that you know for a fact that God doesn't intend for millions of 'babies' to die every year?" After all, God commanded the deaths of unborn babies long ago, why not now? And then, toss in the tsunami-style wholesale slaughters, and God's "plan" becomes completely inscrutable.
Indeed, that's the point. Once you suggest that an injustice or wrongful death is simply part of "god's inscrutable plan," then anything can rationalized and permitted. A dead infant is a dead infant. It is either morally wrong and horribly revolting that it died or it isn't. To say that god's gets to use a different set of ethics when it comes to these things is asinine. He gave us the rules! Why wouldn't we hold him morally accountable for a child's death, a crippling birth defect, a natural disaster? He is either in charge or he isn't. He is either responsible or he isn't.
Christians admit it's "difficult" to accept god's apparent malice and uncaring for his creation. Screw that. It's completely unethical to accept it. Outrage is the only moral response. If we can't hold god accountable, then he is not a moral god.
Of course, there is no conflict if there is no god. Suddenly everything becomes much simpler to accept. The "difficulty" is miraculously gone.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 02/10/2005 18:47:31 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 19:25:30 [Permalink]
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| You know what? If the premise were that God made Earth the way it is as a challenge, to see how well people can cope with random disaster without divine aid, I'd be more likely to buy the whole story. But as it is, with an allegedly all-loving - and personal - God, the whole house of cards simply crumbles. Christianity is based upon the premise of a God who gets involved with His Creation on a regular (even daily) basis, and that's what, given the context of world wars and tsunamis, makes Him cruel. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 19:40:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Christianity is based upon the premise of a God who gets involved with His Creation on a regular (even daily) basis, and that's what, given the context of world wars and tsunamis, makes Him cruel.
Precisely! It's the picking and choosing what constitutes God's involvement that's at odds. God cannot simultaneously be not responsible for a mine cave-in, but yet be responsible for half the miners rescue. He can't not be faulted for sending a wall of water over the homes of hundreds of thousands of people, yet be praised when a single child is found alive. It's an all or nothing proposition.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 02/10/2005 19:40:29 |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 19:48:14 [Permalink]
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Actually, as we learned last week, God's attention was diverted to a more profound cause. God was helping Terrel Owens heal in time for the Super Bowl.
TO is a pathetic MF. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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jimrobb
New Member
38 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 20:23:14 [Permalink]
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These are all excellent points. I'm a skeptic by nature, though I may not seem that way to you folk. Where I come from, they're saying special prayers and lighting candle for me. My blog for skeptics, Skeptics Club, does grapple with many of these questions. Check it out.
H. Humbert, Dave W. and others score well by noting that believers credit God with active intervention when some people survive a disaster while declaring him uninvolved in the original earthquake/flood/fire/whatever. Ok, fair enough. Either God was behind (caused) the original Tsunami, killing multitudes, OR he ignored it, coldly sitting by while the innocent perished, OR he can neither cause disasters nor prevent them nor save anybody. That about right?
If you accept John Calvin's logic that God's very power must make him prima facie responsible for all good and bad things, everything. I understand that once you start down this philophical road, you tend to become either angry at a vengeful, grotesque divinity or caste belief aside. If you want to read a real first-class scourge of God's neglegence and life's unfairness, check out the biblical books of Job and Ecclesiastes. These ideas are common to humanity and thousands of years old.
Considering the state of the world, it's hard to believe. But Jesus has arrested my attention. He taught a parable, saying that an old widow needed justice, wasn't getting it, so she appealed to a wicked judge. She finally won the old villain over by bugging him daily for justice. She won her case. Jesus went on, "So what makes you think God won't step in and work justice for his chosen people, who continue to cry out for help? Won't he stick up for them? I assure you, he will. He will not drag his feet. But how much of that kind of persistent faith will the Son of Man find on the earth when he returns?" [Read for yourself]
That passage has haunted me through the years. |
Jim Robb  |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 20:55:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by jimrobb
Ok, fair enough. Either God was behind (caused) the original Tsunami, killing multitudes, OR he ignored it, coldly sitting by while the innocent perished, OR he can neither cause disasters nor prevent them nor save anybody. That about right?
That's about right. quote:
Considering the state of the world, it's hard to believe. But Jesus has arrested my attention. He taught a parable, saying that an old widow needed justice, wasn't getting it, so she appealed to a wicked judge. She finally won the old villain over by bugging him daily for justice. She won her case. Jesus went on, "So what makes you think God won't step in and work justice for his chosen people, who continue to cry out for help? Won't he stick up for them? I assure you, he will. He will not drag his feet. But how much of that kind of persistent faith will the Son of Man find on the earth when he returns?"
First of all, for that parable to accurately reflect the posited situation, the judge would also have to be the cause of the old woman's misfortune, or least have know about it, for years perhaps, and failed to prevent it. He would have to be keenly aware of her suffering in the minutest of details. He would have to know her agony, and he would have to know beforehand that this poor woman would drag herself before his bench and beg for mercy. So he grants "justice" at last? What kind of a judge would that be? Indeed, what kind of a god is that?
Jesus' "assurances" mean very little. The judge has already dragged his feet. Justice should not have to be begged out of a moral god. The mesage is clear: "Suffer suffer suffer, and if you beg long and hard enough, god might relent in the end." Not really the sort of god that deserves my attentions even if I did believe he existed.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 21:05:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by jimrobb
Ok, fair enough. Either God was behind (caused) the original Tsunami, killing multitudes, OR he ignored it, coldly sitting by while the innocent perished, OR he can neither cause disasters nor prevent them nor save anybody. That about right?
OR he's got some sort of reason for acting (or not acting) as He does, and humans aren't at all privvy to it. Is this not closer to the real Biblical position on the matter? Yes or no, in this case, any person claiming that God had anything to do with the tsunami (whether good or bad) is simply an arrogant punk, blowing smoke up our collective butts.
(And it really is what people claim about God and the Bible that matters, since I don't recognize the Bible as some sort of higher authority.)
I'm sure I could come up with more possibilities (like the god who sets up the entire universe, starts it running, and doesn't plan on coming back for many billions of years, just to see what's happened), but I'm more interested in what you really think. And what Christians in general think, but I won't expect you to know that. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 21:18:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
OR he's got some sort of reason for acting (or not acting) as He does, and humans aren't at all privvy to it. Is this not closer to the real Biblical position on the matter? Yes or no, in this case, any person claiming that God had anything to do with the tsunami (whether good or bad) is simply an arrogant punk, blowing smoke up our collective butts.
Can you explain this better, Dave? First you say he may have a reason for "acting (or not acting)," and then claim that god can't have had anything to with the tsumani. I don't see how postulating motive absolves god from action/inaction.
Granted, I don't believe god had anything to do with the tsunamic either, but that's because I don't believe he exists. If god did exist, he would have had to have something to do with the tsumani, even if it's designing a universe in which such phenomena occur. Or were you merely meaning "any person claiming to know why and to what extent God had anything to do with the tsunami (whether good or bad) is simply an arrogant punk, blowing smoke up our collective butts?" Otherwise I'm confused.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 02/10/2005 21:30:04 |
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verlch
SFN Regular
781 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 22:56:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
You know what? If the premise were that God made Earth the way it is as a challenge, to see how well people can cope with random disaster without divine aid, I'd be more likely to buy the whole story. But as it is, with an allegedly all-loving - and personal - God, the whole house of cards simply crumbles. Christianity is based upon the premise of a God who gets involved with His Creation on a regular (even daily) basis, and that's what, given the context of world wars and tsunamis, makes Him cruel.
Well how do you know the Devil isn't down there trying to figure out how to bring destruction. He plays a force in world events also! The Devil can then ask you why didn't God stop it? Well because as we look around the world we see 10 million beings living on a small world.
We see soil and things growing out of it. Growing from the light and warmth of the sun. He is very much so smarther than us and has a plan. He isn't asking Dave W. for direction in how to put a planet together, build it, or maintain it. We all should Shut up and enjoy the speed and the ride, baby...lol... |
What came first the chicken or the egg?
How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?
There are no atheists in foxholes
Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science — conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4
II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!
Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?
Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.
We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.
"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
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verlch
SFN Regular
781 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 23:00:25 [Permalink]
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There are probubly plenty of unfallen planets and heaven that have not fallen. They obey God and nothing bad happens. Well don't blame God for Eve choosing to eat the apple God warned her not to eat.
"In the day ye touch the fruit thereof you shall die.
Now when she touched it did she die right away? |
What came first the chicken or the egg?
How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?
There are no atheists in foxholes
Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science — conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4
II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!
Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?
Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.
We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.
"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 23:58:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Christians admit it's "difficult" to accept god's apparent malice and uncaring for his creation. Screw that. It's completely unethical to accept it. Outrage is the only moral response. If we can't hold god accountable, then he is not a moral god.
Yep.
And the people who worship him and praise him while giving him credit for these acts are equally reprehesible. They disgust me.
quote:
Considering the state of the world, it's hard to believe. But Jesus has arrested my attention. He taught a parable, saying that an old widow needed justice, wasn't getting it, so she appealed to a wicked judge. She finally won the old villain over by bugging him daily for justice. She won her case. Jesus went on, "So what makes you think God won't step in and work justice for his chosen people, who continue to cry out for help? Won't he stick up for them? I assure you, he will. He will not drag his feet. But how much of that kind of persistent faith will the Son of Man find on the earth when he returns?"
Emphasis mine.
Please let me point out to you, that you can't assure anyone of any such thing. Unless, of course, you have some privelaged info that the rest of us don't! Be advised, if you claim such a thing in public you may be spending some time inside a padded room.
Enough with the moronic apologetics already.
And verlch.... since your type are so fond of stories, analogies, and parables...
Take your average person. Put a box in an area they frequent. Point the box out to them. Tell them that you don't want them to open the box. If you aren't standing near the box, you know for a fact that somebody is going to look inside the box. Kinda like signs that say "wet paint", people always have to touch the paint to see if it's really wet.
Surely your omnipotent god, who created all of us, understood this little quirk of human nature, as he's the one who made us curious.
Given all that, how can you say that it was anything OTHER than the intet of god for the apple to be eaten?
You can't.
But really, the whole god thing is just a fantasy created by ignorant people anyway.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2005 : 01:20:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verlch
Well how do you know the Devil isn't down there trying to figure out how to bring destruction. He plays a force in world events also!
Who created the Devil?
Who is omnipotent God or the Devil?
(Genesis 1:29, 2:17, 3:1-6 tells us which one of them is the liar.) |
"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2005 : 01:20:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verlch
There are probubly plenty of unfallen planets and heaven that have not fallen. They obey God and nothing bad happens. Well don't blame God for Eve choosing to eat the apple God warned her not to eat.
"In the day ye touch the fruit thereof you shall die.
Now when she touched it did she die right away?
Well here's another mistake the Bible writers made adding yet more evidence the Bible was written by your average myth believing humans of the day. God punished women with the curse they would have pain in childbirth. Then Jesus came along and supposedly paid for the sin. Anesthesia for childbirth was developed by men 1,900 years later. I'm an atheist and I had access to anesthesia. Lots of poor Christian women in third world countries have no access to anesthesia or pain meds for childbirth. Nothing in the Bible has the story anywhere close to how it actually went down.
Men were cursed to toil on the land or something. Well, some do some don't. It doesn't matter if they are believers or not, who toils and who doesn't. It didn't change after Jesus either. So the Bible has another story with absolutely no correlation to reality no matter how you interpret it.
Gee, do you think the devil wrote the Bible or changed reality? |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 02/11/2005 01:22:03 |
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verlch
SFN Regular
781 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2005 : 01:43:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Starman
quote:
Originally posted by verlch
Well how do you know the Devil isn't down there trying to figure out how to bring destruction. He plays a force in world events also!
Who created the Devil?
Who is omnipotent God or the Devil?
(Genesis 1:29, 2:17, 3:1-6 tells us which one of them is the liar.)
God created us with choice to serve Him or not. He doesnt' force your love for him, nor order you to follow His ways. What kind of universe would it be if nobody was forced to follow his maker?
God created the devil with a choice to no longer worship Him and become His enemy! The bible says God bore long with Lucifer. |
What came first the chicken or the egg?
How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?
There are no atheists in foxholes
Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science — conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4
II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!
Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?
Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.
We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.
"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
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verlch
SFN Regular
781 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2005 : 01:46:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
quote:
Originally posted by verlch
There are probubly plenty of unfallen planets and heaven that have not fallen. They obey God and nothing bad happens. Well don't blame God for Eve choosing to eat the apple God warned her not to eat.
"In the day ye touch the fruit thereof you shall die.
Now when she touched it did she die right away?
Well here's another mistake the Bible writers made adding yet more evidence the Bible was written by your average myth believing humans of the day. God punished women with the curse they would have pain in childbirth. Then Jesus came along and supposedly paid for the sin. Anesthesia for childbirth was developed by men 1,900 years later. I'm an atheist and I had access to anesthesia. Lots of poor Christian women in third world countries have no access to anesthesia or pain meds for childbirth. Nothing in the Bible has the story anywhere close to how it actually went down.
Men were cursed to toil on the land or something. Well, some do some don't. It doesn't matter if they are believers or not, who toils and who doesn't. It didn't change after Jesus either. So the Bible has another story with absolutely no correlation to reality no matter how you interpret it.
Gee, do you think the devil wrote the Bible or changed reality?
Basically man is to till the ground, or work all the days of his life and his days will be full of sorrow until man returns to the dust he was created from. From dust was man created and to dust shall man return.... |
What came first the chicken or the egg?
How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?
There are no atheists in foxholes
Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science — conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4
II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!
Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?
Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.
We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.
"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
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