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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
 Posted - 02/11/2005 : 02:18:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verlch
What kind of universe would it be if nobody was forced to follow his maker?
As long as I lived in their house, I had to follow their rules.
They don't threaten me with eternal torture. I love them any way...
Ooops I forgot, this is not so strange. I live in reality. |
"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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Paulos23
Skeptic Friend
USA
446 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2005 : 07:04:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verlch
Basically man is to till the ground, or work all the days of his life and his days will be full of sorrow until man returns to the dust he was created from. From dust was man created and to dust shall man return....
Funny. Isn't that what the medevil Barons wanted their serfs to do.... |
You can go wrong by being too skeptical as readily as by being too trusting. -- Robert A. Heinlein
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley |
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2005 : 07:53:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by jimrobb
Yes, Wendy, that's right. I believe natural causes were behind the disaster. My point is that any self-respecting God could prevent earthquakes and has therefore chosen not to do so. Why? No God? Or unsentimental God playing a much deeper game. Is it possible that as sentimentalist Westerners, we subconciously re-cast the biblical God in our image? Do we disappoint ourselves? On the other hand, Jesus does advise his followers to pray for outrageous things. So, I dunno.
Looks like things got a bit harsh for you while I've been gone. Surely you understand why we take issue with your position, jimrobb. You really can't have your cake and eat it too.
So, you agree that the tsunami was a natural disaster, but is it your position that God allowed it to occur as a way of parenting us? Was the tsunami a "school-of-hard-knocks" kind of lesson? An example to us all?
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Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2005 : 08:17:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by jimrobb
Considering the state of the world, it's hard to believe. But Jesus has arrested my attention. He taught a parable, saying that an old widow needed justice, wasn't getting it, so she appealed to a wicked judge. She finally won the old villain over by bugging him daily for justice.
God is a wicked old villain? I'd subscribe to that.
The day I told "him" Good Riddance was the best day of my life: every aspect of my life changed for the better the instant I realised I was on my own, and that I was the only one with the power to make any difference in my life. That was more than 10 years ago, and I can't remember a single time when I regretted my choice. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2005 : 09:26:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
Or were you merely meaning "any person claiming to know why and to what extent God had anything to do with the tsunami (whether good or bad) is simply an arrogant punk, blowing smoke up our collective butts?"
Bingo. If God's motives for acting or not acting are beyond all human ability to comprehend, as is suggested by certain Biblical stories, then anyone claiming any knowledge of His motives is full of crap.
This is, of course, independent of whether or not God exists. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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jimrobb
New Member
38 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2005 : 10:04:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
So, you agree that the tsunami was a natural disaster, but is it your position that God allowed it to occur as a way of parenting us? Was the tsunami a "school-of-hard-knocks" kind of lesson?
Wendy, thanks for the comment. Don't think that the tsunami was sent to teach a lesson. My point about Jesus' words about all kinds of terrible mishaps is, rather, that we should use the opportunity of tragedies to review our general helplessness and common fate, which is death. In that surely every person reading this discussion thread has to agree with Jesus. Right? But it doesn't explain why.
For an answer, to the extent that the Bible seems to point to an answer, obviously the New Testament is near-obsessed with references to the "fallen" world. Note, not just fallen people, but the entire shooting match. Is this a satisfactory answer (i.e., does it make me feel better?)? Hell, no. But it may be true nonetheless. For example, am I fallen? My record of gross imperfection seems to support it. The natural order fallen? See "tsunami." New Testament's solution? Yeah, it's hard to believe, but Jesus had the temerity to suggest that when the patient was sick, God sent a doctor. [Read for yourself] |
Jim Robb  |
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jimrobb
New Member
38 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2005 : 10:39:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
I'm sure I could come up with more possibilities (like the god who sets up the entire universe, starts it running, and doesn't plan on coming back for many billions of years, just to see what's happened), but I'm more interested in what you really think. And what Christians in general think, but I won't expect you to know that.
Thanks for asking! Actually, can I make a little tiny off-subject point first? It's just this--you folks are to be commended for hearing me out on my views. I appreciate that. Remember that I am skeptical myself, and these exchanges do me good.
That said, I'm thinking there are some pretty disappointed Calvinists hanging around this forum. If I were to get all hung up on what God could have done to help but did not, I'd be pretty disgusted too. But truthfully, all I know about God (that I accept) comes from the teachings of Jesus, who I call the Young Master. And he emphasizes solutions over problems. Isn't it possible that we humans have trouble understanding a divine being?
My dog Nick doesn't understand that I've spent $5,000 this past year on meds trying to extend his life. He just knows he feels bad. But he also trusts me, and I appreciate that. No, we're not dogs, but we are unable to understand any of the basic processes driving the cosmos with any precision. (Unless someone's got an answer for what happened before the Big Bang. . .
Jesus didn't explain how the universe, but he did have some helpful suggestions on how we might work with God. Until someone's got a better idea, I stick with him. |
Jim Robb |
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jimrobb
New Member
38 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2005 : 10:47:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
If god did exist, he would have had to have something to do with the tsumani, even if it's designing a universe in which such phenomena occur.
Excellent point. Yes, all logic fingers God as having responsibility at some level for every disaster. We already know he allows every human being and animal to die. That's rough. But he says he has a plan to undo this little horror.
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Jim Robb |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2005 : 12:03:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verlch
Basically man is to till the ground, or work all the days of his life and his days will be full of sorrow until man returns to the dust he was created from. From dust was man created and to dust shall man return....
Verlch, does your brain just shut off when you have to deal with the nonsense in the Bible? Men don't all work and many certainly don't work all the days of their lives. Men aren't all full of sorrow.
And this was true before and after 'Jesus died for our supposed sins'. |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 02/11/2005 12:08:04 |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2005 : 12:14:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by jimrobb
Don't think that the tsunami was sent to teach a lesson. My point about Jesus' words about all kinds of terrible mishaps is, rather, that we should use the opportunity of tragedies to review our general helplessness and common fate, which is death. In that surely every person reading this discussion thread has to agree with Jesus. Right? But it doesn't explain why.
For an answer, to the extent that the Bible seems to point to an answer, obviously the New Testament is near-obsessed with references to the "fallen" world. Note, not just fallen people, but the entire shooting match. Is this a satisfactory answer (i.e., does it make me feel better?)? Hell, no. But it may be true nonetheless. For example, am I fallen? My record of gross imperfection seems to support it. The natural order fallen? See "tsunami." New Testament's solution? Yeah, it's hard to believe, but Jesus had the temerity to suggest that when the patient was sick, God sent a doctor. [Read for yourself]
What sick?, and what is this doctor supposed to do?, and how does this have anything to do with explaining the pain in the world? You are rambling rationalizations I think because you really are having a hard time finding them.
The tsunami is supposed to help people contemplate their fate? Here let me hit you on the head to teach you about me hitting you on the head. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2005 : 13:32:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by jimrobb
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
If god did exist, he would have had to have something to do with the tsumani, even if it's designing a universe in which such phenomena occur.
Excellent point. Yes, all logic fingers God as having responsibility at some level for every disaster. We already know he allows every human being and animal to die. That's rough. But he says he has a plan to undo this little horror.
All well and good Jim, but before we can make any statement regarding God's responsibility or lack of it, we must first establish the existence of God. This has yet to be done, yourself, et al to the contrary.
This opens up a larger bucket of bait than many realize. There is a possibility that God exists -- any atheist with the ability to find his sox in the morning will concede that. Therefore, there is the possibility that all gods exist, and the number of those, past and present, would fill the bleachers at the Super Bowl. And of course, each has it's own story with a cast of supporting and adverserial charectors. And none have any evidence in support of their existance beyond ancedote, however popular the ancedotes might be.
Did Jesus even exist? I'm willing to accept that there was an itinerate rabbi named Jesus wandering with a band of followers through the Holy Land at the time described. The name was, and still is, a common enough one, so there may well have been a number of such.
Did he get crusefied? Could be. It was a common enough Roman form of execution and getting ratted out by a follower also was and is a popular form of treachery.
Was he ressurected after three days in the tomb? Whoa! -- now we're streachin' it a bit. Before we can make that claim, we must first confirm God, which puts us right back where we started, and you don't get much more circular than that.
And thus it is with all religions. The texts or legends all claim to be inspired by the deity, therefore, the deity exists because the texts or legends say so, and if that won't have an effect the inner ear, I don't know what would.
Now, I'm off to find a particularly interesting quotation, I''ll post on edit...
Edit: Found it!
Tertullian [Quintus Septimius Florens Tertullianus] (160?-220?)
First important Christian ecclesiastical writer
"The Son of God died; it is by all means to be believed because it is absurd. And he was buried and rose again; the fact is certain, because it is impossible."
-- Tertullian, responding to Marcion's rejection of the resurrection tale as being absurd, from The Ante-Nicene Fathers, ed.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 02/11/2005 13:43:27 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2005 : 13:41:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by jimrobb
That said, I'm thinking there are some pretty disappointed Calvinists hanging around this forum. If I were to get all hung up on what God could have done to help but did not, I'd be pretty disgusted too.
Frankly, what I'm disgusted by is people telling me that...- their God is all-powerful, all-loving and all-caring,
- that thousands of people died as part of some unknowable "plan" of this God of theirs, and
- regardless of the horrors we see, God's plan must be good.
In other words, since I have no evidence of the existence of God, all ideas about what he might or might not be able to do are moot. What matters, instead, is what his devout followers state, as those ideas can (and have) a direct impact upon my life. When people praise God for killing hundreds of thousands of other people, I sure do get disgusted.quote:
But truthfully, all I know about God (that I accept) comes from the teachings of Jesus, who I call the Young Master.
Are you sure you've interpreted those teachings correctly? It's a certainty that not everyone who reads those teachings gets them correct. Otherwise, there wouldn't be Catholics, Baptists, Methodists, etc., there'd just be "Christians."quote:
And he emphasizes solutions over problems.
Does he suggest a solution for apologetic nonsense in his name?quote:
Isn't it possible that we humans have trouble understanding a divine being?
I would maintain that having "trouble" is a wild underestimation, and that humans are incapable of understanding a truly divine being, and shouldn't even try. The Christian idea of God, however, seems all too human, and hardly worthy of worship.
You later wrote:quote:
Excellent point. Yes, all logic fingers God as having responsibility at some level for every disaster. We already know he allows every human being and animal to die. That's rough. But he says he has a plan to undo this little horror.
And why - exactly - do you trust him? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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woolytoad
Skeptic Friend
313 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2005 : 16:56:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by jimrobb
Excellent point. Yes, all logic fingers God as having responsibility at some level for every disaster. We already know he allows every human being and animal to die. That's rough. But he says he has a plan to undo this little horror.
Why is dying a "little horror"? |
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dv82matt
SFN Regular
760 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2005 : 18:08:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by jimrobb
Excellent point. Yes, all logic fingers God as having responsibility at some level for every disaster. We already know he allows every human being and animal to die. That's rough. But he says he has a plan to undo this little horror.
But that plan involves sending the majority of humanity to roast in hell for an eternity. Somehow that seems like a less than ideal solution.
Okay, I realize that not all Christians believe that, but it's in the Bible, which most Christians do believe is the Word of God. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2005 : 18:58:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
You know what? If the premise were that God made Earth the way it is as a challenge, to see how well people can cope with random disaster without divine aid, I'd be more likely to buy the whole story.
Until you realize that an omnipotent being would already know the answer without need to "test" it.
quote:
There is a possibility that God exists -- any atheist with the ability to find his sox in the morning will concede that.
Not this atheist, and I generally get my sox on. Atleast not the possibility of an omnipotent god as described by any theology I am aware of. And anything less than an omnipotent god is really nothing more than a being with intelligence and some degree of ability to shape the world around them. Not all that much different from good old H. sapiens if you think about it.
But otherwise, filthy prettymuch nails it.
quote:
Excellent point. Yes, all logic fingers God as having responsibility at some level for every disaster. We already know he allows every human being and animal to die. That's rough. But he says he has a plan to undo this little horror.
That's rough?
Decrease the scale a bit. What if a single person walked into your house and killed every member of your immediate family, then sawed off your arms and legs but left you alive.
What sort of apologetics nonsense would you come up with to justify something like THAT as part of the "divine plan"?
And what plan? Are you an end-of-days kinda guy? Rapture Ready and all that?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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