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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"

USA
166 Posts

Posted - 02/23/2005 :  12:41:54  Show Profile  Send byhisgrace88 an AOL message Send byhisgrace88 a Private Message
Today at 5pm in Florida, Terry Shibo will be murdered. She is a woman who is severly brain damaged because of a car accident many years ago. She can breath on her own. She is responsive to her parents. At 5 o'clock her feeding tube will be removed and she will starve to death. She will die maybe the the slowest most painful death possible.

Who is making the decision to do this? Her husband. He left Terry many years ago. Helives with another woman, and has two children with this other woman. He never officially divorced her, so he is given the decision of whether to keep Terry alive, or to kill her. Terry's parents want to keep her alive, but this evil man is killing her anyway. Do you know why? Because he will recieve all of her assets. Her house, her car, her money. This man is disgusting.

What is this world coming to? The first people that the Nazi's killed were the mentally handicapped. Is that the direction we're going?
We already kill un-born babies on a regular basis. Now this. What next? When does this end?

This story has literally made me feel sick.
[Moved to the Social Issues folder - Dave W.]

Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis

furshur
SFN Regular

USA
1536 Posts

Posted - 02/23/2005 :  12:54:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send furshur a Private Message
What I have read is alot different that what you are reading:
quote:
It was 15 years ago this week that Ms. Schiavo collapsed and her heart briefly stopped beating, possibly because of a potassium deficiency. The brain damage she suffered left her able to breathe on her own but unable to ingest food or drink. Doctors have said she is in a persistent vegetative state, meaning her brain is incapable of emotion, memory or thought.

Ms. Schiavo's parents have repeatedly said that she is alert and responsive.

This is a terrible situation I hope I do not have to experience. It looks to me like parents hoping beyond hope that a miracle will happen and she will 'snap out of it'. Essentially only her parent can detect her alertness. If she could indicate that she did not want to die then it would be murder. The sad fact appears to be that she cannot.


If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know.
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 02/23/2005 :  13:26:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by creation88

Today at 5pm in Florida, Terry Shibo will be murdered. She is a woman who is severly brain damaged because of a car accident many years ago. She can breath on her own. She is responsive to her parents. At 5 o'clock her feeding tube will be removed and she will starve to death. She will die maybe the the slowest most painful death possible.

Who is making the decision to do this? Her husband. He left Terry many years ago. Helives with another woman, and has two children with this other woman. He never officially divorced her, so he is given the decision of whether to keep Terry alive, or to kill her. Terry's parents want to keep her alive, but this evil man is killing her anyway. Do you know why? Because he will recieve all of her assets. Her house, her car, her money. This man is disgusting.

What is this world coming to? The first people that the Nazi's killed were the mentally handicapped. Is that the direction we're going?
We already kill un-born babies on a regular basis. Now this. What next? When does this end?

This story has literally made me feel sick.



The story has many facets.

Her husband has held out beyond hope. The providers of healthcare have not seen the responsiveness. He wants her to pass on with what little dignity she has left to close a chapter of his life. This was all the subject of some questionable legislation in Florida which has been overturned. As the legal representative directing medical care, Terry Shibo's husband is tasked with this difficult decision.

He has made it. The government tried to intervene and was rebuked. During this time, religious organizations seeking to further prolong the rudimentary functioning of Shibo's shell has engaged in character assassination against the person who is tasked with this decision.

The shell is empty. Let it go.

If I was the one in a persistent vegetative state with no hope of recovery as with Ms. Shibo, I have told my wife and parents to shut off the machines and let me go.

This isn't killing the metally handicapped, it's allowing the brain dead to expire. It is also not being administered by the government, but rather people who care about her. This is a major difference between the actions here and the actions of Nazi Germany.

Washington has an assisted suicide law which has been challenged and upheld. This is no different than the drama which unfolds in several hospitals over the years. It is the primary health decision makers responsibility.

Terry's parents are unable to let their daughter go. As long as her shell remains, they cannot move on. In this case, I agree with the husband. As for her assets, by right of marriage he retains all of these already. He gains nothing by her death.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 02/23/2005 :  13:26:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
Could you guys post links to your stories? I can't seem to find this anywhere. At least not CNN or Google.

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 02/23/2005 :  13:36:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Ricky

Could you guys post links to your stories? I can't seem to find this anywhere. At least not CNN or Google.



That's because we have misspelled her last name. It's Schiavo.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/10/22/coma.woman/

http://www.nrlc.org/euthanasia/OpinionStrikingdownTerrisLaw.pdf#search='florida%20bush%20vegetative'

http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/newsmakers/terri.php

http://news.tbo.com/news/MGAGC7TE1MD.html


Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 02/23/2005 :  13:37:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
Agreeing with Val. This is a hidious situation; one that I'd not wish on anybody.

I have a so-called 'living will' that is on file at the VA hospital. If I were to get into such a state, they pull the plug. Everybody will be better off including myself. Had I my druthers, I'd be helped along chemically.

The lawyer that drew it up and my family have copies.

No, this is not a murder, nor is it even euthanasia. There's no one in there to kill.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Edited by - filthy on 02/23/2005 14:56:34
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 02/23/2005 :  13:38:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
http://newstandardnews.net/content/?action=show_item&itemid=1492

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Wendy
SFN Regular

USA
614 Posts

Posted - 02/23/2005 :  13:49:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Wendy a Yahoo! Message Send Wendy a Private Message
As I see it, Mr. Schaivo has had the courage to make a difficult decision while the world looks on and finds fault with him.

Like filthy, I have a Living Will to protect my husband from this sort of terrible situation. I would like to think he loves me enough to fight to see my wishes carried out, but I love him enough not to want him to go through this sort of ordeal.

This is not murder. This is a lesson for all of us - make your wishes known to all your relatives, and your doctor. Get it in writing according to the laws in your state. Living Wills are not expensive, and they might save someone you care about from the hell this man has gone through.

Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 02/23/2005 :  14:29:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
I had a whole different view on this topic until the death of my sister-in-law. She had a heart attack, suffered brain death, then was allowed to die about 10 days later.

What gave me different insight was my brother's comment that he suddenly knew how this husband must feel. Everyone is under the impression the husband just wants to be done with his 'burden'. My brother's wife was not going to recover. My brother accepted that. Then her Mom and a couple friends, not all by any means, decided she could recover, she shouldn't be taken off life support, my brother was suddenly evil. To him, he had just lost his life partner, whom he loved dearly. How dare her friends act as if they knew more than he did what Barb would have wanted. The Mom was just in total denial. The whole thing escalated into a nightmare that still is ongoing even though Barbara is dead.

People make all these judgments about things they know nothing about. They don't know how that husband feels. They don't know if those parents are just deluded about reflex eye and mouth movements. This is a private matter. It doesn't belong in this public arena with supposed pro-lifers who don't mind the death penalty or the genocide in Darfur using the tragedy for personal gain like Jeb Bush and his political whoring over it.

This is not some landmark case protecting the rights of the disabled. It is a tragedy a husband and two parents are dealing with. The prognosis for this woman to recover is nil and her brain function is nil or the doctors would not even be considering allowing a feeding tube removed. The parents and the news media have distorted that picture for certain. This husband may love his wife tremendously and truly doesn't want the situation to continue for legitimate reasons.

It's none of your business nor mine to think we have a right to an opinion about who should prevail in this situation.

Edited by - beskeptigal on 02/23/2005 14:31:18
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furshur
SFN Regular

USA
1536 Posts

Posted - 02/23/2005 :  14:46:45   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send furshur a Private Message
This brings up an important point. Everyone should have a living will, not for you but for your loved ones. I can't imagine how hard it would be for my wife to 'pull the plug' on me. If we only talked about it in passing, she would be second guessing any decision she made. I owe it to her to basically take the decision out of her hands.


If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know.
Edited by - furshur on 02/23/2005 23:08:19
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 02/24/2005 :  01:48:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
quote:
Today at 5pm in Florida, Terry Shibo will be murdered. She is a woman who is severly brain damaged because of a car accident many years ago. She can breath on her own. She is responsive to her parents. At 5 o'clock her feeding tube will be removed and she will starve to death. She will die maybe the the slowest most painful death possible.

Who is making the decision to do this? Her husband. He left Terry many years ago. Helives with another woman, and has two children with this other woman. He never officially divorced her, so he is given the decision of whether to keep Terry alive, or to kill her. Terry's parents want to keep her alive, but this evil man is killing her anyway. Do you know why? Because he will recieve all of her assets. Her house, her car, her money. This man is disgusting.

What is this world coming to? The first people that the Nazi's killed were the mentally handicapped. Is that the direction we're going?
We already kill un-born babies on a regular basis. Now this. What next? When does this end?



Where the fuck hell do you get your information?

Sounds like you were plugged directly into some whacko-fundie news feed, maybe FOX?

For one, the woman had a heart attact many years ago, not a car accident. Her brain was without oxygen for an extended time.

Her husband? Well, guess what. In the good old USA, if you are unable to make medical decisions for yourself, your husband or wife takes that responsibility. Who better to know what your wishes are? Who better to know what you would want done? I think the person you live with day in and day out is the right person to make those decisions, and so do the vast majority of people.

How would YOU feel if you knew that your wife would not want to be kept alive by artificial means (and this is what we are talking about here, ARTIFICIAL LIFE SUPPORT), suffered some tragedy like this, and her parents came in with lawyers and fought you off and had a judge FORCE you to witness your wife being put through an endless torture that you know for a fact she doesn't want?

As somebody who lives in proximity to this situation I have to tell you that you need to step back. This woman died many years ago. Her body continues to function, as young bodies will tend to do, despite having no brain function.

Having witnessed a speech/news conference first hand by this woman's parents several years ago, and overheard the prep by their lawyers(on the front steps of one of the hospitals I work for), I can tell you that they are so far into denial (atleast they were then) that they should have been seeking professional help.

quote:
This story has literally made me feel sick.


I can agree with you on one thing then. This story makes me feel physically ill as well. I get a queasy feeling and a chill (like you just got punched in the gut) at the thought of my body being kept functioning beyond my own ability to care for myself. If I can't care for myself, and do the things I want to do in life, then the time is up. I have special arrangements made to remove the limbs, with a dull and rusty saw, of anyone who violates my living will, regardless of their relationship to me.

Hopefully they will let her body expire. It is far to late to accord her any dignity, as she's been a veg for over a decade. That means that she's been fed through a tube that is surgically placed into her stomach. She shits and pisses on herself every couple of hours. She has to have 24/7 medical care to turn her every hour or so to avoid pressure wounds. 24/7 medical care to clean her excretions off of her. Has to be bathed by other people. Imagine yourself caring for a newborn. Now, magnify that newborn to 140lb with constant liquid stool. It's atleast a 2 person job to clean up the mess.(because this is the result of being fed through a tube, goes in liquid, comes out liquid)

So, call it murder if you want.

The rest of us will call it what it really is. Mercy.


(edit to tone down the tone of the tone that may have been to toned up for general consumption)

Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
Edited by - Dude on 02/24/2005 02:36:20
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 02/24/2005 :  03:55:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
I don't understand how the husband went through the whole court system to the state supreme court and just when it looks like it's over, the parents just go find another judge in another district or something and the whole thing starts over again. I'd say another part of this tragedy is the willingness of so many people to get involved when they have no business getting involved. There must be rules as to which court this belongs in so how does some other judge come along and agree to add his opinion?
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 02/24/2005 :  04:28:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
They got the gov down here to push a bill through the state legislature that basically made it illegal to remove life support from anyone.

They even called it the Shaivo bill.

So, go figure.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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Siberia
SFN Addict

Brazil
2322 Posts

Posted - 02/24/2005 :  08:05:49   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Siberia's Homepage  Send Siberia an AOL message  Send Siberia a Yahoo! Message Send Siberia a Private Message
See, I've arthritis. It was rheumatic, and it was when I was very young - eight months or so. I have full brain functions, study, can work (though I'm searching for a job still), write and all those things. All my limitations befall the physical part - can't walk (for now; we're working on the walking part), can't take a bath by myself, heck, I can't wipe my own ass. I've no shame in saying that. That's my life. I'm ok with it; I have so much more.

Now, life's pretty hard as is. A physical limitation can be a big thing, especially when it is in such a way that the 'weakness' is general and often painful and especially when you live in a country like mine, with no support whatsoever for the handicapped. Now, if even a light limitation as mine can be a pain to live with... imagine to that extent?

I hope that, in case my brain functions are totally lost, as that woman's, my mother/sister/husband/whomever will put me down. That is the final frontier, the one I TRULY fear: being dead inside. I'd rather be dead than alive like that (even because, for me, it'd make no difference, as my mind would be dead anyway).

It's cruel, to keep someone alive like that, with no chance of recovery.

"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa

"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
Edited by - Siberia on 02/24/2005 08:07:46
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 02/24/2005 :  08:05:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal

I don't understand how the husband went through the whole court system to the state supreme court and just when it looks like it's over, the parents just go find another judge in another district or something and the whole thing starts over again. I'd say another part of this tragedy is the willingness of so many people to get involved when they have no business getting involved. There must be rules as to which court this belongs in so how does some other judge come along and agree to add his opinion?



Boy, when Bush talked about activist judges he wasn't kidding.

At what point do you have to counter sue the parents for venue shopping after the state's supreme court rules on it? At what point do you make an appeal to a federal court to get closure? At what point do you finally get pissed off with the jugdical system and hire a hit man to stop the suits from coming?


Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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David Mc
Skeptic Friend

USA
63 Posts

Posted - 02/24/2005 :  08:43:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send David Mc a Private Message
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&e=2&u=/ap/20050224/ap_on_re_us/brain_damaged_woman

There's a video link on this page as well. Brain dead? or Brain damaged? Doesn't look brain dead to me.

Plus, there was no Living Will. Only her husband's word that she did not want to be kept alive.

The courts, by default, could have to order Terri's "death" even though there's no crime involved. Hollywood could not have written a more bizarre situation.
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