|
|
|
beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
 Posted - 02/28/2005 : 11:47:09
|
I know I shouldn't make such a direct attack against the Christian religion here but it is hard not to notice this glaring issue. Since I'm the supposed 'sinner' having committed the horrible offense of not believing, how is it someone like this is better in the supposed 'eyes of the lord' assuming he has asked for forgiveness for torturing and killing human beings for personal pleasure?
Yahoo news story:quote:
Dennis L. Rader, the churchgoing family man and Cub Scout leader arrested Friday, confessed to six killings, ...
...Rader, a married father of two, a Cub Scout leader and an active member of a Lutheran church,....
...At Christ Lutheran Church, where Rader was president of the church council...
|
|
|
BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2005 : 13:02:39 [Permalink]
|
While I encourage all anti-christian dissent, dissent needs legs. I would not use him as an example of Christianity because they could use the same logic and call me a serial killer because I am a white male.
However if you are only complaining about their forgiveness of this whacko, then by all means. *&%$ Christians. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
 |
|
|
beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2005 : 04:01:40 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
While I encourage all anti-christian dissent, dissent needs legs. I would not use him as an example of Christianity because they could use the same logic and call me a serial killer because I am a white male.
However if you are only complaining about their forgiveness of this whacko, then by all means. *&%$ Christians.
Oh, I only meant the forgiveness issue. I didn't mean anything about serial killers being religious or religious persons being amoral or anything.
IE it's not what you do it's just what you say. |
|
|
|
sweetmiracle
Skeptic Friend
USA
74 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2005 : 10:42:23 [Permalink]
|
It does seem that amoral people use religion as a cover pretty often...child molesters especially.
The argument could be made that people in power often use religion as a tool to motivate the masses to do their bidding. How many wars, invasions and state-sanctioned murders have taken place because the rulers manipulated popular religious sentiment to back them up?
And of course, the actual perpetrators are promised forgiveness for all their 'sins' in exchange for violating the rights of others..... |
Remarkable claims require remarkable proof.
-Carl Sagan |
|
|
|
George
New Member
USA
30 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2005 : 13:29:06 [Permalink]
|
You can bet no Christian church will approve of any immoral behavior he has conducted. Evil is evil, good is good. They may have been the one hope he has had in life. One could ask, how many more people would he have killed had he not been going to Church? Not a great question, admittedly, as my guess it was all part of his game. Any wolf who learns to put on sheep's clothing, can do the most damage to the flock.
Compare this to a perverted rock star that is attracted to children. Would he put on sheep's clothing, too? Not that any such person exists, of course. |
|
|
|
beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2005 : 14:25:54 [Permalink]
|
But the issue here isn't who or why people are evil or whether they go to church, the issue is how many evil people are in heaven and how many good people are in hell (supposedly of course).
Why did Lot's wife, (again supposedly), get total annihilation for one mere disobedient act? Other people didn't get the same. Shouldn't she have had a chance to repent?
Bind, torture, kill, in front of one poor woman's kids no less, but according to the church all you need to do is tell god you are sorry. You don't even have to tell the kids of the victim you are sorry. Seems pretty disgusting if you ask me.
(BTW, I'm still working on that summary of the other thread but I haven't had the time to do a proper job yet, forgive me.  ) |
|
|
|
sumnihil
New Member
USA
39 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2005 : 18:32:41 [Permalink]
|
frightening, isn't it? we serve a just and loving god. a god who, it just so happens, has a bit of an ego issue. do everything wrong and say "gee, daddy, i'm sorry." and all is well. do even one thing wrong (and thanks to original sin, we all have at least one strike against us), and forget--or refuse--to suck up to some megalomaniacal father figure, and it's the firey pits for ya.
and they wonder why church attendance is down. same reason m.j.'s tickets aren't selling so well state-side. you know the old saying: 'touch me once, shame on me, touch me twice....' (sorry, i know that was in poor taste, but i just had to.) |
all great truths began as blasphemies.
--g.b. shaw
yes, i am aware that i do not use capital letters. it is discrimination, and discrimination is wrong. period. |
|
|
|
Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2005 : 01:05:12 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by sweetmiracle
It does seem that amoral people use religion as a cover pretty often...child molesters especially.
Child molesters are often drawn to activities and occupations that involve children. As religions also pray on children it can be a for them suitable occupation.
|
"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
|
|
|
sweetmiracle
Skeptic Friend
USA
74 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2005 : 07:59:37 [Permalink]
|
| Churches are also wondereful places for those who like to control others... |
Remarkable claims require remarkable proof.
-Carl Sagan |
|
|
|
George
New Member
USA
30 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2005 : 16:17:02 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
But the issue here isn't who or why people are evil or whether they go to church, the issue is how many evil people are in heaven and how many good people are in hell (supposedly of course).
 Oops. Sorry, I missed your direction.
quote:
Why did Lot's wife, (again supposedly), get total annihilation for one mere disobedient act? Other people didn't get the same. Shouldn't she have had a chance to repent?
We know little about her. We do know she was told not to look back by the two angels which had led Lot's immediate family out of the city. She had a much better chance than Lot's daughters who were told to "get out of Dodge" by Lot, yet they (sons-in-law) ignored it.
One might argue that Lot did not deserve freedom from the judgement. However, Lot did try to protect them at one point and Abram did try to prevent the destruction (possibly for Lot's sake)
quote:
Bind, torture, kill, in front of one poor woman's kids no less, but according to the church all you need to do is tell god you are sorry. You don't even have to tell the kids of the victim you are sorry. Seems pretty disgusting if you ask me.
I believe God expects more than idle words. Yet, it appears to be true that even the worst of us can have God's accpetance by us believing in Christ. The two other men that were crucified both serve as quite good examples. The one spoke idle words, the other expressed a small measure of faith. He may have been a murderer. We don't know. One got to go to "Paradise" that day. It's a "free gift" not of works, so none of us will have any boasting rights.
Otherwise, where would one draw the line on acceptable vs. unacceptable? If you do draw lines, then salvation becomes about works. Although "works" may generate more merit , which is good, yet, no one is perfect enough to earn a free rid to heaven. Why should God be obligated to second-class stuff like me? The Christian message is simply God sending His Son to pay our spiritual debts for all, no exceptions. This gift requires belief, however.
This does not mean those who do good works will be ignored or unrewarded.
quote:
(BTW, I'm still working on that summary of the other thread but I haven't had the time to do a proper job yet, forgive me. )
Ok. No hurry. Hope you clean-up my perpetually poor use of the English language. 
|
| Edited by - George on 03/02/2005 16:57:46 |
|
|
|
beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2005 : 23:02:44 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by George
quote:
Why did Lot's wife, (again supposedly), get total annihilation for one mere disobedient act? Other people didn't get the same. Shouldn't she have had a chance to repent?
We know little about her. We do know she was told not to look back by the two angels which had led Lot's immediate family out of the city. She had a much better chance than Lot's daughters who were told to "get out of Dodge" by Lot, yet they (sons-in-law) ignored it.
One might argue that Lot did not deserve freedom from the judgement. However, Lot did try to protect them at one point and Abram did try to prevent the destruction (possibly for Lot's sake)
You're missing the point here as well, George. Are you really trying to rationalize the story of Sodom and Gomorrah?
And Lot said to the town's men, "Here, rape my two daughters, but not these male strangers, for we know women are worthless anyway."
"Disobey today and I'll scold you, but if I'm in a bad mood I might just turn you into salt, who knows. I'm certainly not consistent", said god. "And by the way, about those children and babies in Sodom and Gomorrah, lets not put that part in the book, OK?"
"My daughters had sex with me", said Lot. "I was drunk and certainly not a incestual rapist."
quote:
Originally posted by George
quote:
Bind, torture, kill, in front of one poor woman's kids no less, but according to the church all you need to do is tell god you are sorry. You don't even have to tell the kids of the victim you are sorry. Seems pretty disgusting if you ask me.
I believe God expects more than idle words. Yet, it appears to be true that even the worst of us can have God's accpetance by us believing in Christ. The two other men that were crucified both serve as quite good examples. The one spoke idle words, the other expressed a small measure of faith. He may have been a murderer. We don't know. One got to go to "Paradise" that day. It's a "free gift" not of works, so none of us will have any boasting rights.
More ignoring of the point, George. The point isn't who God forgives, it's that asking forgiveness is more important that not 'sinning' in the first place. To me this hypocrisy is just one more reason to believe the Bible is full of nonsense. Here you are trying to make sense of it, but to do so you have to ignore the obvious. The most sleazy slimy human being matters not and the most generous kind soul matters not. All that matters is deity worship. I'm telling you, if I believed there was a god like that, I'd be the first person lined up for the rebellion.
quote:
Originally posted by George
Otherwise, where would one draw the line on acceptable vs. unacceptable?
Gimme a pen, it isn't hard.quote:
Originally posted by George
If you do draw lines, then salvation becomes about works. Although "works" may generate more merit , which is good, yet, no one is perfect enough to earn a free rid to heaven. Why should God be obligated to second-class stuff like me? The Christian message is simply God sending His Son to pay our spiritual debts for all, no exceptions. This gift requires belief, however.
This does not mean those who do good works will be ignored or unrewarded.
Yes it does. Once again, you are blindly trying to fit the 'Christian' belief into what is actually written in the Bible. It doesn't fit. It's a fantasy. People have made up what they want to believe in. That's one reason so many people have such different ideas about what the Bible is actually saying. They don't read it objectively. They read it and try to squeeze it into their preconceived beliefs. Just as your comments here show you doing as well.
Which is is, works or belief? What do you mean works influence favor? No they don't. Is BTK going to 'lower' heaven? Is Mother Teresa better off in heaven than the BTKs? What, she has more gold on her doorknobs? You can't really make your beliefs fit what the Bible says. |
|
|
|
George
New Member
USA
30 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2005 : 10:20:32 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
And Lot said to the town's men, "Here, rape my two daughters, but not these male strangers, for we know women are worthless anyway."
The angles were not "male strangers" to Lot. He, somehow, recognized them for who they were. His bad behavior (offering his daughters) is not defended by anyone I know. The angel's powers to defend them made it clear it was unnecessary to try and compromise.
quote:
"Disobey today and I'll scold you, but if I'm in a bad mood I might just turn you into salt, who knows. I'm certainly not consistent", said god. "And by the way, about those children and babies in Sodom and Gomorrah, lets not put that part in the book, OK?"
There is not enough in the story to be able to judge God's judgement regarding Lot's wife (there never could be, IMO). Yet, there are very few instances where angels became so directly involved with man. Refusing to heed their few commands warrants consequences. If we ignore a small red light at an intersection, do we not, at times, suffer major consequences? Is it God's fault if a child is injured in such cases? I won't argue with you as to how horrible the punishment was, but we will likely never agree on - "was it justified?". [Is my grammar close here?]
quote:
The point isn't who God forgives, it's that asking forgiveness is more important that not 'sinning' in the first place.
That is the ultimate point. Forgivness wins over judgement. Otherwise, none would have a chance as we have all blown any hope of earning an entrance into heaven (obviously, some more than others). God has every right to insist on perfection if works are the rule. Fortunately, it is not. Love is not temporal, it conquers death with the instrument of grace through faith. Faith itself is a gift from Love.
[/quote]Which is is, works or belief? What do you mean works influence favor? No they don't. Is BTK going to 'lower' heaven? Is Mother Teresa better off in heaven than the BTKs? What, she has more gold on her doorknobs? [/quote] If you had never been to a concert, you might say getting a ticket is all that is needed to get in. However, once you are there, some seats are better than others. We don't know what honors might be bestowed on Mother Teresa and others.
|
|
|
|
sweetmiracle
Skeptic Friend
USA
74 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2005 : 14:01:25 [Permalink]
|
The concert analogy is horrible....
"I said I'm sorry for murdering all those people in cold blood, so now I get to go, too!"
Where is the justice?
|
Remarkable claims require remarkable proof.
-Carl Sagan |
|
|
|
George
New Member
USA
30 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2005 : 14:12:59 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by sweetmiracle
The concert analogy is horrible....
"I said I'm sorry for murdering all those people in cold blood, so now I get to go, too!"
Where is the justice?
You can't presume it is that easy to get a "ticket to the concert". Just mouthing words doesn't work with parents (who exercise judgement and grace, and can sense their child's intent), and works less, probably, with their Creator. A hardened heart may beyond much hope. The New Testament does not give out a lot of hope for murderers and fornicators, etc. Even the rich are not likely to enter acording to Jesus (rope, or camel, through eye of needle passage).
|
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2005 : 20:24:10 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by George
Is it God's fault if a child is injured in such cases?
If God is all-powerful, and God is the one delivering the punishment, then absolutely it is his fault. He might consider it "collateral damage," but that doesn't absolve Him of responsibility.quote:
God has every right to insist on perfection if works are the rule.
This seems theologically unsupportable to me.
Obviously, people are imperfect (otherwise Eve would never have succumbed to temptation). If God expected perfection from a known imperfect creation, it would mean that God is a cruelly unreasonable idealist.
Besides which, how would you define "perfect charity," anyway? It can't be doing nothing but charitable acts, as a person would die an early death (from starvation, during childhood), thus depriving him/herself of the time to do more charitable acts. Obviously, "perfect charity" must represent some sort of balance between doing things for others and looking out for oneself.
And it doesn't appear that the Bible offers strict guidelines as to how much charity is too much, or too little (besides none, of course). And so the idea of God punishing imperfect people for not attaining perfection when God doesn't even tell us what "perfection" is would be extremely cruel. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
George
New Member
USA
30 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2005 : 08:51:36 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Originally posted by George
Is it God's fault if a child is injured in such cases?
If God is all-powerful, and God is the one delivering the punishment, then absolutely it is his fault. He might consider it "collateral damage," but that doesn't absolve Him of responsibility.
If it is "punishment", you have an argument. God will be quite capable of defending His actions, IMO.
However, not every negative aspect in live is a direct intervention. Life fails, entropy increases, etc. It is believed by many that Evil acts independently from God. It actively pursues intervention to tempt mankind into hurtful acts, due to evil's hatred of God.
quote:
quote:
God has every right to insist on perfection if works are the rule.
This seems theologically unsupportable to me.
Obviously, people are imperfect (otherwise Eve would never have succumbed to temptation). If God expected perfection from a known imperfect creation, it would mean that God is a cruelly unreasonable idealist.
If a robot mfg. builds a robot with A.I., which then acts destructively, what do they do with it? What rights does the robot have, really?
Of course, the robot(s) can argue it was the creator's poor software. The programers could have written code to prevent any "free will" thinking. If we add this to the analogy, then this would render mankind no better than other life forms, however. Our ability to do good and evil, at our level, makes us god-like. We are special.
quote:
Besides which, how would you define "perfect charity," anyway? It can't be doing nothing but charitable acts, as a person would die an early death (from starvation, during childhood), thus depriving him/herself of the time to do more charitable acts. Obviously, "perfect charity" must represent some sort of balance between doing things for others and looking out for oneself.
Excellent point. I like the "balance" term. It applies to everything, IMO. What value is love if no judgement acts to protect it?
quote:
And it doesn't appear that the Bible offers strict guidelines as to how much charity is too much, or too little (besides none, of course). And so the idea of God punishing imperfect people for not attaining perfection when God doesn't even tell us what "perfection" is would be extremely cruel.
Scripture alone is not enough by design, IMO. [I wonder if we would be robots if it did?] This is a difficult issue. When I came very close to the Lord, I wanted to do everything exactly as I was suppose to. "Just tell me what I'm suppose to do, and I'll do it" (to prove my value, I suppose),that was my prayer. It bombed. The heart comes first. The disciples died because they were willing to risk death to stand-up for Him, not due to any order, but due to love.
|
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Topic Locked
