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Kilik
BANNED

110 Posts

Posted - 04/02/2005 :  03:23:27  Show Profile Send Kilik a Private Message
Various videos around the net

http://www.williamccchen.com/video.htm

http://www.chentaichi.org/hunyuan/Videos/PosturalAdvantageWeb.mov
http://www.chentaichi.org/hunyuan/Videos/How3JointsWorkWeb.mov
http://www.chentaichi.org/hunyuan/Videos/AppliWCalandra03Web.mov
http://www.chentaichi.org/hunyuan/Videos/StretchHeel1.mov
http://www.kungfu4u.com/Tai%20Chi/Tai%20Chi%20Videos.htm
http://emptyflower.stanford.edu/video/wailunchoi_xingyi.mpg
http://www.brainsalad.com/mov/clip06.mov
http://www.taiji.de/taiji/head5e_17/chensi-2.ram

Some videos at these sites
http://www.blacktaoist.com/
http://www.hsing-i.com/pics/index.html
http://www.taijigongfu.com/gallery.html

Push hands
http://www.taiji.org.hk/_video/whgpushand.wmv

Incredible Vitality and health
www.mindboxing.com
[Moved to the General Skepticism folder - Dave W.]

Edited by - Kilik on 04/02/2005 03:28:27

Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9677 Posts

Posted - 04/02/2005 :  04:13:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
Kilik, why not check out this thread?

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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Kilik
BANNED

110 Posts

Posted - 04/05/2005 :  11:54:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Kilik a Private Message
CHeck out Shuai CHiao, CHinese wrestling. Use of the legs! Sweeps, hooks, stomping, hip hitting, leg techniques are important for martial arts

http://emptyflower.stanford.edu/video/Chang_sc_3.WMV

This video incorporates alot of grappling
http://homepage.mac.com/robertstover/iMovieTheater22.html#

This video shows using the center of gravity to generate internal energy, this guy would be good a hitting or bumping with a hip attack! Center of gravity is like a chines "wok", it goes under the ground and drags under the ground. Leg techniques when done solo, should dig into the ground, when sweeping a deep trench should be built by your leg sweep

http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/crushing/ken/video/video06.html
Edited by - Kilik on 04/05/2005 12:47:25
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26013 Posts

Posted - 04/05/2005 :  12:07:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
Actually, Kilik should re-read this post.

The SFN forums do not exist as a repository for links you find interesting, Kilik. If you've got a point to make, make it.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 04/05/2005 :  12:13:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
quote:
The SFN forums do not exist as a repository for links you find interesting, Kilik. If you've got a point to make, make it.


I was gonna ask him if he had a point, or if he was just here to spam us with links...


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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furshur
SFN Regular

USA
1536 Posts

Posted - 04/06/2005 :  05:10:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send furshur a Private Message
I guess there is no point to his posts he just dumps stuff in here he finds interesting. Gee... thanks



If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know.
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Starman
SFN Regular

Sweden
1613 Posts

Posted - 04/06/2005 :  05:16:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Starman a Private Message
Hmmmm....

Wonder what the "Bookmarks" on my browser is for?

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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 04/06/2005 :  06:19:04   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
Out goes latinijral and in comes kilik. I swear, there is a queue of woo-woo's lined up for the SFN. Once one leaves, another one enters.

Anyone think it is more than a coincidence that his sn is a palindrome of Kil?

But anyways, some of those videos are kind of cool, such as the very first one.

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 04/06/2005 :  07:11:04   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Ricky

Out goes latinijral and in comes kilik. I swear, there is a queue of woo-woo's lined up for the SFN. Once one leaves, another one enters.

Anyone think it is more than a coincidence that his sn is a palindrome of Kil?

But anyways, some of those videos are kind of cool, such as the very first one.

Count your blessings, my friend. They could all hit us at once....


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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bloody_peasant
Skeptic Friend

USA
139 Posts

Posted - 04/06/2005 :  08:46:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send bloody_peasant a Yahoo! Message Send bloody_peasant a Private Message
I am an ex-practitioner of kung fu even to the point of being a junior and mediocre teacher and I've actually practiced Hsing-I & Tai chi for quite sometime. Hsing-I is supposedly an art of powerful Ki/Qui/Chi/Qi (however you wanna spell it) based punching. Notice the form displayed in http://emptyflower.stanford.edu/video/wailunchoi_xingyi.mpg and this is at least a very close variant of one of the 6 or so Hsing-I forms I practiced (Cannon Fist I believe).

These 2 along with Pah kwa form the trio of the 3 major "internal" styles of kung-fu. All are heavy in the supposed development and use of chi. It is supposedly developed by various forms of breathing based mediation and concentration on certain centers within the body (e.g. the tan-tien which is about 2 fingers below your belly button). With practice you are supposed to be able to focus and concentrate this energy and suddenly release it with explosive eruption of force.

As a younger student I was very skeptical of the claims of chi even after witnessing quite a few demonstrations including the putting of a candle out from a distance of about 12' by pointing forcefully at it. At some point I eventually bought into it and all of the kung fu claims and began all sorts of training including heavy meditation, various herbal treatments, iron body conditioning (beating various parts of your body against things and rubbing it with special herbal mixes), etc.

Eventually I came to the conclusion that it was a bunch of woo-woo crap :<, sad because it was really cool, but my rational skepticism finally won out. Basically any of the amazing feats (and some of them are very amazing) can be done by a well conditioned individual with the right practice. For instance with the right training and conditioning, which includes a high pain tolerance level that is trained for as well an individual can take a full power punch or kick to the abdomen with no adverse effects. I would allow a board to be broken along my Adam's apple is an other example. Breaking stacks of bricks with your hands is also another example.

A lot of these things we did during public demonstrations to help draw in new students. Some are actually more parlor tricks. For example the infamous bed of nails actually is more trick than physical feat. The spacing of the nails displaces your weight (and the weight of those standing on you or the force of those hitting you) over a lot of nails. Being in good shape and tightening your muscles for the duration along with the displaced force prevents any punctures (although sometimes a slightly longer or crooked nail would pierce you). BTW breaking 1 by pine with the grain or breaking bricks with spacers is also parlor tricks that require practice however breaking stacks of bricks without spacers or breaking a board across grain requires tremendous force. It just doesn't require any magical chi force. Just good conditioning and proper focus.

I finally quit teaching and practicing and sadly lost my relationship with my teacher who was a nice guy even if misguided. Sadly kung fu is full of a lot of this eastern mysticism crap, but if taught from a rational perspective has many good facets to it. I think we need to remember some of the historical reasons for this. Some of it was based on religious ideas and primitive Chinese mysticism, but a lot of this came about just to intimidate the other "guy". The Shaolin monks for instance became famous for their fighting prowess and often were left along by Chinese warlords on reputation alone.
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astropin
SFN Regular

USA
970 Posts

Posted - 04/06/2005 :  09:39:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send astropin a Private Message
I also practiced Hsing-I for about 2 years. I always felt as you do. Great force can be generated, but it is all in the technique. It was interesting to learn how to plant yourself to the ground so that a much larger person could not move you. Hsing-I is mostly about close quarters fighting, grappling and even bone breaking techniques designed to get your opponent on the ground and out of commission ASAP.

I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.

You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.

Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.

Infinitus est numerus stultorum
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Starman
SFN Regular

Sweden
1613 Posts

Posted - 04/06/2005 :  11:41:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Starman a Private Message
Been practicing Karate for a while and also tried Akido for two years but I'm glad to say that all the instructors I've come into contact with have been rather connected to reality.

I do not see Chi or Ki is something magical, its an old explanation for facts that we now explain with statics, dynamics and physiology.

Some one that was said to have strong Ki (I'm used to the Japanese version of the word) had good balance and used his body in an efficient way.




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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9677 Posts

Posted - 04/06/2005 :  12:07:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
Having practised Judo, Ju-jutsu, and Tai-Chi I have to agree with Starman, Astropin, and bloody_peasant.

It's about training and learning to utilise one's body in the most efficient way. Harmonising movements with Newtonian physics and mechanics, and program your body's muscle-memory and reflexes for the most appropriate responses.

Of course then there's the parlour tricks. I was watching some Tibetan monks doing some pretty amazing stuff on the Euro-sport channel. A few times the camera accidentally revealed the underlying trick that was not apparent unless you were a keen observer (which did not actually diminish my respect for the practitioners who still required total control in order to not get their throat skewered by a spear that obviously was not fake, or something similar)

Part of the tricks are fake, the rest of them is about the mastering of one's own body. And all of it has natural explanations.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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Kilik
BANNED

110 Posts

Posted - 04/06/2005 :  12:19:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Kilik a Private Message
Well, nothing on here talks about putting out candles at a distance. THat's not a very practical technique in a fight. Chinese martial arts are about fighitng in serious situations. MAny practitiners in the past were body guards. BUt internal martial arts increases vitality and qi, and produce a strong wave of force which can penetrate into the oppnent. THey are martial arts combined with intricate Taoist and Buddhist body and meditation methods.

Strikes, fists, eye gouges, elbows, ripping with fingers, grabbing, twisting, locking, pulling, shaking, a hard push, sweeps, kicks, knees, hooking, squeezing, stomping, throwing. Who needs that if you can beat someone without touching. We could all get along and help each other in communities then and the world would be different....

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26013 Posts

Posted - 04/06/2005 :  12:26:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Kilik

BUt internal martial arts increases vitality and qi...
You first need to define and demonstrate the existence of "vitality" and "qi" before this assertion of fact will be accepted.
quote:
...and produce a strong wave of force which can penetrate into the oppnent.
This force should then be measurable. We should be able to create devices to detect and scientifically analyze such a force. Such devices should exist already. Where are they?
quote:
Strikes, fists, eye gouges, elbows, ripping with fingers, grabbing, twisting, locking, pulling, shaking, a hard push, sweeps, kicks, knees, hooking, squeezing, stomping, throwing. Who needs that if you can beat someone without touching. We could all get along and help each other in communities then and the world would be different....
Do you also think that everyone should carry a gun, since that'll make everybody more polite to one another? As demonstrated by the Cold War, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and elsewhere, possessing powerful weapons does not create peace.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Kilik
BANNED

110 Posts

Posted - 04/06/2005 :  12:29:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Kilik a Private Message
Taijiquan- is from the 1600s, CHen village, near SHaolin temple. MOst beleive it was created by a retired general, who retreated to CHen village and developed Taijiquan out of his extensive knowledge of military arts, martial arts, and weapons combined with Daoist and Buddhist cultivation methods

Hsingi- the oldest internal style. I don't know a whole lot about it. It's based on animal forms of fighting. IT is fast and to the point. It is associated with a chinese general yeuh fei, and sometimes Taoist priciples such as the 5 phases. Shaolin style often are based on animals, and xingyi could even be muslim influenced.

Bagua- created in 1900s by a man who became the emperors bodyguard. It consists of alot of different martial arts techniques. THere are rumors and stories of the founder also learning from a Daoist monk, but it is not proven I don't think. Never the less the practice is based on Daoist circle walking and uses alot of Daoist internal body methods.
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