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Giltwist
Skeptic Friend
USA
69 Posts |
 Posted - 06/17/2005 : 13:23:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Everyone who thinks that current U.S. law is based upon the Ten Commandments, like Roy Moore, is actually a danger to the First Amendment's guarantee of religious freedom.
Well, yeah those who think it's SOLELY based on the Ten Commandments. But there is clearly SOME connection. I mean theft, perjury (sp?), murder, and adultury are all no-no's in our society. I do, however, agree that creating a "Biblical Law" state is unwise. Besides interpretation issues, which I am not even going to go into, they are darn strict laws that demand things like STONING on a regular basis. This is of course, you fall into the large number of people who seem to ignore "Let him without sin cast the first stone." There is a DRASTIC contrast between OT strictures and the forgiving attitude of the NT.
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Separation of church and state is an important issue because this country is 80-something percent Christian
Sorry if I was unclear. I do thing separation of church and state is important, but I don't know why CHRISTIANS keep going on about it.
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Giltwist, if the nutcases in the OP get much more power, it's possible that your own, personal version of Christianity would be outlawed, as you don't appear to be nearly strident enough. It might be time for you to pay more attention to these issues.
I dunno, there's such a dichotomy that I'd almost expect a new civil war or something. I can't imagine that the blue states would put up with that sort of thing. As for outlawing it, they can outlaw whatever they want. They can make me say whatever they want but that can't make me believe it. Of course, I'm so bullheaded that I'd end up being the first one on the chopping block because I wouldn't be able to keep my mouth shut for long.
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This common misconception of the establishment clause is demonstratively false.
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Original version of the establishment clauses actually were worded to mean national or mandatory religion. However these were all rejected for the more general text.
Ok, then I'm not totally crazy. It also explains why here, in the Bible Belt I might add, I got the interpretation that I did from my teachers.
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or instance Jefferson as President refused to make an official declaration of a day of prayer because he considered the establishment clause prohibited him from doing so.
Even though he wouldn't have to declare to WHOM, it would still imply to SOMEONE, right? So atheists and agnostics would be on the short end of the stick?
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They want to usurp the state and claim America for Christ.
THAT, I will buy.
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This leads to a form of tyranny of the people to the whims of those in power who "know" what God wants.
Agreed. Not that I'm convinced that the people of the Republic know what's good for them or for their country, it's still the best we've got.
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Should the above-mentioned individuals, et al, gain the power they desire, you might well see your atheist aquaintances on trial for heresy; denounced by a favor-currying neighbor.
This is exactly why I began to diverge from the Church-at-Large. I began to realize that there were damn fine people who I wouldn't want to be without in Heaven, if such a place isn't just a metaphor. How could it be a place without sadness if some of the people I love most dearly would be kept from me? I started asking myself things like, "Would God be so petty as to deny entrance to those who call him by the wrong name or assign him the wrong gender (not that I think he's got a gender)" And I surely had to say that he wouldn't. From there it's been a long journey into all the beliefs of the world that I can get my hands on. I still have a lot of religious texts to get through, and I've read a fair amount, including more of the Bible than any 10 average Bible-thumpers combined, probably. Believe me, if you guys went, I wouldn't be far behind. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2005 : 13:49:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Giltwist
quote:
Everyone who thinks that current U.S. law is based upon the Ten Commandments, like Roy Moore, is actually a danger to the First Amendment's guarantee of religious freedom.
Well, yeah those who think it's SOLELY based on the Ten Commandments. But there is clearly SOME connection. I mean theft, perjury (sp?), murder, and adultury are all no-no's in our society.
Yes, but the laws regarding them were taken from British Common law. That they have some overlap with an aspect of Christian doctrine is irrelevant. U.S. laws aren't based in any way on Christianity.
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As for outlawing it, they can outlaw whatever they want. They can make me say whatever they want but that can't make me believe it. Of course, I'm so bullheaded that I'd end up being the first one on the chopping block because I wouldn't be able to keep my mouth shut for long.
Well, the laws are designed so that no one religion would ever have enough power to force such a situation. The thing you have to remember is that the laws don't prohibit people from praying in public or worshipping whatever god (or no gods) they choose. It's to prevent government from openly espousing a religious affiliation.
Too many people have been brain-washed into thinking their religious freedoms are at stake of being taken away by "activist judges." The opposite is going on. The laws have been consistently interpreted to prevent government, in the guise of a federal judge, say, from turning the courthouse into a pulpit for a particular theology in order to protect the religious freedom of the citizenry.
It's amazing to me how many freedoms you can take away from people just by convincing them that they are "under attack."
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 06/17/2005 15:08:07 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2005 : 18:39:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Giltwist
Well, yeah those who think it's SOLELY based on the Ten Commandments. But there is clearly SOME connection. I mean theft, perjury (sp?), murder, and adultury are all no-no's in our society.
On the other hand, not a single one of them is codified within the Constitution, and all of them predate Moses. Hell, adultery isn't even illegal in the U.S.quote:
I do, however, agree that creating a "Biblical Law" state is unwise. Besides interpretation issues, which I am not even going to go into, they are darn strict laws that demand things like STONING on a regular basis. This is of course, you fall into the large number of people who seem to ignore "Let him without sin cast the first stone." There is a DRASTIC contrast between OT strictures and the forgiving attitude of the NT.
And most extremist Christians only seem to want to use the punishments of the OT when it suits them. When they are the ones misbehaving under the old Laws (all 300+ of them), they quote Christ's "fulfillment" of the Law to say those same chapters no longer apply. Go figure that.quote:
Sorry if I was unclear. I do thing separation of church and state is important, but I don't know why CHRISTIANS keep going on about it.
Ah, well, that's an easy one, too: the vocal Christians who keep ranting against separation think that the Bible is the only way to true morality, and they're trying to protect the rest of us from ourselves.
Those minority Christians in groups like People for the Separation of Church and State rant about it because they're terrified, as am I, of the damn extremists.quote:
I dunno, there's such a dichotomy that I'd almost expect a new civil war or something. I can't imagine that the blue states would put up with that sort of thing.
The blue-staters may not care to put up with it, but I'll bet dollars to donuts that if push comes to shove, it'll be the red-staters who're the first to arm and mobilize. A lot of blue-staters will still be busy preparing court briefs for lawsuits that'll get tossed out with the rest of justice system when Bush or another fundie declares martial law as the second step towards pissing all over the Constitution.quote:
Even though he wouldn't have to declare to WHOM, it would still imply to SOMEONE, right? So atheists and agnostics would be on the short end of the stick?
As would anyone of a religion which doesn't "pray" (I know some Buddhists who'd be offended if their meditation were called "prayer").quote:
Not that I'm convinced that the people of the Republic know what's good for them or for their country, it's still the best we've got.
And I'd much rather act on what I think is good for me, than to have some religious nutball legislate what he/she thinks is good for me. Gives me the willies, just thinking about it.quote:
From there it's been a long journey into all the beliefs of the world that I can get my hands on. I still have a lot of religious texts to get through, and I've read a fair amount...
Adherents.com is a wonderful resource:Adherents.com is a growing collection of over 43,870 adherent statistics and religious geography citations: references to published membership/adherent statistics and congregation statistics for over 4,200 religions, churches, denominations, religious bodies, faith groups, tribes, cultures, movements, ultimate concerns, etc. The religions of the world are enumerated here. So, your reading list is full, huh?  |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2005 : 19:22:30 [Permalink]
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That looks like a very interesting site, Dave. I'll go into it deeper tomorrow.
Thanks!
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2005 : 17:59:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Giltwist
quote:
I'm sure that Rapture Ready loves him.
I've seen a lot of references to these folks. I'm a bit hesitant to go looking them up. I'm not sure I want to know what they get up to.
Rapture Ready is a Christian Discussion forum.
Some members are more frothing-at-the-mouth bible-thumping Christians than other. As a SFN member once said (paraphrased, and not specifically about them, but anyway): the thought that they can vote, raise children, and carry firearms scare the shit out of me.
An estimated 50% of them thinks that "thou shall not kill" means "you shall not commit murder, but you may very well use your 44 Magnum to blow the head off the person who is threatening you"
and that execution is a perfectly reasonable punishment. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2005 : 19:08:04 [Permalink]
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This is a sample of the mentatity that we are dealing with. Given the same circmstances, many if not all of the OP list would have done the same.
quote:
Crucified nun dies in 'exorcism'
Father Daniel says the nun's death was justified
A Romanian nun has died after being bound to a cross, gagged and left alone for three days in a cold room in a convent, Romanian police have said.
Members of the convent in north-west Romania claim Maricica Irina Cornici was possessed and that the crucifixion had been part of an exorcism ritual.
Cornici was found dead on the cross on Wednesday after fellow nuns called an ambulance, according to police.
On Saturday a priest and four nuns were charged in connection with her death.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Giltwist
Skeptic Friend
USA
69 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2005 : 23:11:53 [Permalink]
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*twitch*
I'm not familiar with using lethal methods to exorcise demons... This is why I'm tempted to go for the doctorite in theology so I can go to the Vatican and take their class on exorcism...Not that I think that was an apporved method. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2005 : 00:31:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Giltwist
*twitch*
I'm not familiar with using lethal methods to exorcise demons... This is why I'm tempted to go for the doctorite in theology so I can go to the Vatican and take their class on exorcism...Not that I think that was an apporved method.
First establish there are such a thing as demons. Then worry about methods of exorcising them.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Giltwist
Skeptic Friend
USA
69 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2005 : 08:27:18 [Permalink]
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| Well, personally, from what I have seen of people who claim to be pestered by "demons," I honestly see them to be, in many cases, a psychological construct akin to a split personality. In one case, I see it as a excuse for her to be weak. She feels that she is constantly under attack and needs help all of the time to protect herself. In another case, I would conjecture that she wants to be a heroine or otherwise in the cosmic spotlight, and she needs to have powerful enemies for that to be the case. Not that there couldn't be non-corporeal entities of the malevolent variety, I just haven't seen evidence of them. |
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walt fristoe
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 19:14:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by bloody_peasant
What makes him so dangerous is his ability to sound "sane" and reasonable. His radio voice is calm and even handed, sounding like a wise grandfather. His motives are anything but wise. He doesn't scream and rant like a Robertson or a Falwell, with their fat little faces all squinched up. He doesn't have that deep fake sounding booming voice of a James D. Kennedy and more importantly he stays away from saying the really damning things most of the time.
Scary, freaking scary.
That's the very definition of "insidious"! |
"If God chose George Bus of all the people in the world, how good could God be?"
Bill Maher |
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walt fristoe
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 19:28:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
First establish there are such a thing as demons.
The word "demon" isn't even in the Bible - at least not the KJV! |
"If God chose George Bus of all the people in the world, how good could God be?"
Bill Maher |
| Edited by - walt fristoe on 06/20/2005 19:33:52 |
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Giltwist
Skeptic Friend
USA
69 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 20:23:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
So, your reading list is full, huh?
Yeah, I've read a good portion of the Bible, but should reread now that I've had exposure to other religions. I've read the Daodejing several times in different translations. The Confucian Analects, the Bhagavad Gita, the Dhammapada, the Rule of St. Benedict, portions of Nostradamus, portions of the Goetia, portions of the Apocrypha, portions of the books of Zohar,portions of the Quran and the Enuma Elish, just to name some.
Just on the top of the list I need to read Anton LaVey's Satanic Bible and the Zend Avesta.
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The word "demon" isn't even in the Bible - at least not the KJV!
Demon is just a short way of saying fallen angel in Christan lore, isn't it? Then again, the old testament seemed to portray them more as loyal opposition than rebels. |
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| Edited by - Giltwist on 06/20/2005 20:25:43 |
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dv82matt
SFN Regular
760 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 22:05:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by walt fristoe
The word "demon" isn't even in the Bible - at least not the KJV!
Oh yeah!
1 Cor. 2:4
And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power.
But seriously, as far as I know demons are identical to devils, and devils are mentioned in the KJV. |
| Edited by - dv82matt on 06/20/2005 22:12:47 |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 06:56:05 [Permalink]
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| Isn't demon a corruption of daemon, greek or latin or whatever for soul? |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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