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markie
Skeptic Friend

Canada
356 Posts

Posted - 07/11/2005 :  08:43:01  Show Profile Send markie a Private Message
Last year I watched two episodes of Daily Planet, a half hour (Candadian produced) show on science. I just found the links to those two shows which I thought a skeptical audience may find interesting, relating to some rather mysterious findings relating to consciousness (or the subconscious).

http://www.exn.ca/video/?video=exn20040909-globalconsc.asx

http://www.exn.ca/video/?video=exn20040910-jayhand.asx

astropin
SFN Regular

USA
970 Posts

Posted - 07/11/2005 :  09:43:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send astropin a Private Message
Well.....I think the first guy is off his rocker....but I could be wrong.

And the second one.....? Way too many variables in my opinion. I saw no clear cut evidence of predictability.

I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.

You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.

Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.

Infinitus est numerus stultorum
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 07/11/2005 :  13:48:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
Is there a transcript somewhere? I don't have the patience to listen to them.
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markie
Skeptic Friend

Canada
356 Posts

Posted - 07/12/2005 :  19:14:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send markie a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal

Is there a transcript somewhere? I don't have the patience to listen to them.


I couldn't find transcripts, but I did find things related to the first video by googling "Global Consciousness Project". I've just read some of the skeptical articles, but the skepticism is rather general and not rigourous. For instance I have yet to see a mathematical refutation of the analysis that concludes that there is significance in the deviation from expected random behaviour shown in the data from the Random Event Generators.

What's a skeptic to do? What lies behind *that* door?

Perhaps in this case, since skepticism appears to carry more philosophical weight (shall I say baggage?) than does pure science, the skeptical position may resemble religion more than it does science. That is, skepticism may tend to resist bonafide scientific discoveries in their earlier stages. I suppose *someone* has to do it though

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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 07/12/2005 :  20:25:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
quote:
That is, skepticism may tend to resist bonafide scientific discoveries in their earlier stages.


That is, at least partially true. When an idea is first suggested and does not have support, skepticism will not back it. In the same way, skepticism will not say it is false either. What skepticism will do is wait for that idea to be tested. It isn't really resistance as it is caution.

Is there really something wrong with that?

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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markie
Skeptic Friend

Canada
356 Posts

Posted - 07/12/2005 :  22:15:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send markie a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by markie: That is, skepticism may tend to resist bonafide scientific discoveries in their earlier stages.
quote:
Originally posted by Ricky: That is, at least partially true. When an idea is first suggested and does not have support, skepticism will not back it. In the same way, skepticism will not say it is false either. What skepticism will do is wait for that idea to be tested. It isn't really resistance as it is caution.

Is there really something wrong with that?

Ah, but read the skeptical articles regarding the Global Consciousness Project. It looks like resistance, not merely caution. But to skeptics like yourself who aren't *as* skeptical as other skeptics, it may approach something more like caution.

As I found out very early on this board, skeptics run the full spectrum of possibilities, from near knee-jerk dogmatism to the more freethinking type. Just like religionists. (hehe)

Hey, I just thought up something.

Ockham's prayer

Our Razor who art in Reason
Hallowed be thy Name
Your Kingdom Cut
Out all the Smut
That complicates the Game.

darn another failed poem

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dv82matt
SFN Regular

760 Posts

Posted - 07/13/2005 :  02:22:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send dv82matt a Private Message
Heh, not a bad little limerick markie. I don't agree that skeptisism is anything like religion, but I gotta admit it's a catchy little diddy.

I made some changes. What do you think?

Ockham's Prayer

Our Razor who art in Reason,
Hallowed be thy Name.
Thy sharpness cleaves
all that deceives,
and simplifies the Game.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 07/13/2005 :  03:35:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
I like it. 'Twould make a good signature.

If you want to see some real skeptics, look again to science and the peer reviews of hypothesis. That's where it gets really tough.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 07/13/2005 :  07:29:45   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
quote:
the skeptical position may resemble religion more than it does science.


There you go again with this need of yours to marginalize science and skepticism.

You just can't seem to grasp that without evidence (of the verifiable and repeatable kind) scientists and skeptics will not accept claims.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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markie
Skeptic Friend

Canada
356 Posts

Posted - 07/13/2005 :  08:26:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send markie a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by dv82matt

Heh, not a bad little limerick markie. I don't agree that skeptisism is anything like religion, but I gotta admit it's a catchy little diddy.

I made some changes. What do you think?

Ockham's Prayer

Our Razor who art in Reason,
Hallowed be thy Name.
Thy sharpness cleaves
all that deceives,
and simplifies the Game.



I think I prefer it to mine. It is worthy of Lord Ockham.

About skepticism being like religion, OK, I admit I was having some fun. More or less.


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Siberia
SFN Addict

Brazil
2322 Posts

Posted - 07/13/2005 :  08:32:49   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Siberia's Homepage  Send Siberia an AOL message  Send Siberia a Yahoo! Message Send Siberia a Private Message
But wasn't it Occam?

"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa

"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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markie
Skeptic Friend

Canada
356 Posts

Posted - 07/13/2005 :  08:48:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send markie a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by filthy

I like it. 'Twould make a good signature.

If you want to see some real skeptics, look again to science and the peer reviews of hypothesis. That's where it gets really tough.



Yes there is a healthy competitiveness in science. The *best* aspect of skepticism (to me)is the rigorous scientific approach, which deals with *facts*. Frankly when looking at good scientific peer review stuff, I seldom ever think *skepticism* per se, I think great *science*.


However skepticism (as I observed it here) commonly has additions to science which have to do with things like attitude (ie, tinged with cynicism) and religio-philosophical preference. Skepticism goes to extent of evaluating *truth*, which is beyond the *facts* which science deals with, so in that regard I will tease it mercilessly that it is like religion in a certain way. (sorry Dude!)

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dv82matt
SFN Regular

760 Posts

Posted - 07/13/2005 :  21:53:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send dv82matt a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Siberia

But wasn't it Occam?
Occam and Ockham are both accepted spellings.
quote:
Originally posted by markie

Yes there is a healthy competitiveness in science. The *best* aspect of skepticism (to me)is the rigorous scientific approach, which deals with *facts*. Frankly when looking at good scientific peer review stuff, I seldom ever think *skepticism* per se, I think great *science*.

However skepticism (as I observed it here) commonly has additions to science which have to do with things like attitude (ie, tinged with cynicism) and religio-philosophical preference. Skepticism goes to extent of evaluating *truth*, which is beyond the *facts* which science deals with, so in that regard I will tease it mercilessly that it is like religion in a certain way. (sorry Dude!)
I'm not sure but I think that you may be sensing the varnish of human nature that inevitably coats the core of skepticism. The varnish is gonna be a lot thicker at an informal forum like SFN, than in the scientific peer review process, but hopefully still at a reasonable level.

Speaking of human nature, can you spot the changes?

Ockham's Prayer

Our Razor who art in Reason,
Logic be thy Name.
Thy keenness cleaves
all that deceives,
and simplifies the Game.
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markie
Skeptic Friend

Canada
356 Posts

Posted - 07/15/2005 :  08:57:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send markie a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by dv82mattI'm not sure but I think that you may be sensing the varnish of human nature that inevitably coats the core of skepticism. The varnish is gonna be a lot thicker at an informal forum like SFN, than in the scientific peer review process, but hopefully still at a reasonable level.

Perhaps. Yet any decent scientist should have been embarrassed by Joe Nickell's (of CSIOP) response to another scientist's findings which put the medevial radiocarbon dating of the Turn Shroud in doubt. How the human 'varnish' of such animosity and obvious spin can figure so prominently in a seasoned scientist and truth seeker is puzzling. To me, that is the dark side of skepticism.

Hey maybe Ochkam's prayer should be lengthened to include the part about "deliver us from evil" .
quote:
Originally posted by dv82matt: Speaking of human nature, can you spot the changes?

Ockham's Prayer

Our Razor who art in Reason,
Logic be thy Name.
Thy keenness cleaves
all that deceives,
and simplifies the Game.


Very good, my fave so far!
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26004 Posts

Posted - 07/15/2005 :  23:41:04   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by markie

Yet any decent scientist should have been embarrassed by Joe Nickell's (of CSIOP) response to another scientist's findings which put the medevial radiocarbon dating of the Turn Shroud in doubt. How the human 'varnish' of such animosity and obvious spin can figure so prominently in a seasoned scientist and truth seeker is puzzling. To me, that is the dark side of skepticism.
Have you read Nickell's reply to the rebuttal of Nickell's response to that other scientist's findings about the Shroud of Turin? Perhaps the "obvious spin" is coming from a different direction than you suppose?

You previously wrote:
quote:
Ah, but read the skeptical articles regarding the Global Consciousness Project. It looks like resistance, not merely caution.
Why shouldn't bad arguments be thouroughly resisted?

As far as I've been able to tell (and I know of no prominent skeptic making this argument), the only thing the GCP has run statistical analyses on is particular "events," and I've seen no data whatsoever from any other time period. For all I know, there are statistical "spikes" constantly, but they only report the ones that they know happened during "significant events" (again, that's what I've seen).

In other words, until they produce all of their data, using the same analytical tools they've used to produce the data that's currently online, there's nothing there. And ideas which denigrate the usefulness of the scientific method by applying said method incorrectly (whether purposefully or not) should be resisted, with all our effort.

(Actually, without producing all of their data, when the GCP issues press releases about "global consciousness" events real time, that's when I'll be impressed that they might be onto something. Unfortunately, looking at their catalog of "events," I can't find any indication of when the analyses were run, and the reports put online.)

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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dv82matt
SFN Regular

760 Posts

Posted - 07/16/2005 :  00:26:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send dv82matt a Private Message
Doh!

I just realized that this thread is about the Global Consciousness Project.

Anyway there's another thread on it here.
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