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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
 Posted - 08/18/2005 : 19:24:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by soda_farl
It would not be possible for the purveyors of porn to have successful commerical operations sans the dehumanization of humans.
Sure it would, as not all porn is "dehumanizing." Having sex is a very human thing to do, as is becoming excited by visually arousing stimuli.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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trishran
Skeptic Friend
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2005 : 19:34:57 [Permalink]
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Having worked in the porn magazine industry for a couple of years, I have to make some observations: I never met a single woman who was forced or abused into working for any well-known men's magazines. Many of the magazines were pretty much written and run by women. Many male by-lines belong to women writers. Also, while in the industry, I heard that most, if not all, letters allegedly from readers were written by [mostly] female writers.
As far as I know, porn that involves actual children is "homemade". There are no magazines publishing such things. [There are mags like, "Barely Legal" which take women who are over 18 and small, and dress them to look even younger, but again, those are consenting adult women]
It's like this: men respond to visual stimuli, women like words. Men look at photos, women read boddice-rippers. Sexual interest is normal, healthy and fun. Sex crimes are horrible, but there is a huge difference between assault and looking at pictures. As far as I know, the argument that sexy photos create a climate that encourages crime was first posited by religious activists in the 1980s. It was later adopted by feminists in the late 80s-early 90s. This argument is made for political reasons, but there is no science to back it up, as far as I know.
I noticed that mainstream mens mags are full of articles about how to please your partner [almost identical articles appear in women's mags every month]. Also, on the idea that photos of women are oppressive just because they exist: Women in photos in men's mags average 15 lbs heavier than the women models who appear in ordinary woemn's magazines. |
trish |
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soda_farl
New Member
43 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2005 : 20:06:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by trishran
Having worked in the porn magazine industry for a couple of years, I have to make some observations: I never met a single woman who was forced or abused into working for any well-known men's magazines. Many of the magazines were pretty much written and run by women. Many male by-lines belong to women writers. Also, while in the industry, I heard that most, if not all, letters allegedly from readers were written by [mostly] female writers.
As far as I know, porn that involves actual children is "homemade". There are no magazines publishing such things. [There are mags like, "Barely Legal" which take women who are over 18 and small, and dress them to look even younger, but again, those are consenting adult women]
It's like this: men respond to visual stimuli, women like words. Men look at photos, women read boddice-rippers. Sexual interest is normal, healthy and fun. Sex crimes are horrible, but there is a huge difference between assault and looking at pictures. As far as I know, the argument that sexy photos create a climate that encourages crime was first posited by religious activists in the 1980s. It was later adopted by feminists in the late 80s-early 90s. This argument is made for political reasons, but there is no science to back it up, as far as I know.
I noticed that mainstream mens mags are full of articles about how to please your partner [almost identical articles appear in women's mags every month]. Also, on the idea that photos of women are oppressive just because they exist: Women in photos in men's mags average 15 lbs heavier than the women models who appear in ordinary woemn's magazines.
Have you ever read "The Bottom Feeders" the biography of the Shaw brothers? One of the former employees who had a change of heart about the porn industry unequivocally stated that he had never met a porn actress who did not have a history of sexual abuse. They might not have been physically forced into participating, but they would not be participating in the industry if they had a modicum of self esteem. That is not to say that there are not instances of women indeed being forced into porn. When I was very young, I heard a theologian explain why lust was a sin. His explanation was that a person who lusts objectifies a person and diminishes their humanity by reducing them to an object. Their soul, their personality, and their humanity is not acknowledged. I find this very believable after coming upon porn magazines that consist of nothing but genitalia, and breasts. I don't think we should confuse healthy sexuality which does not preclude the healthy bonding between males and females with the outright exploitation of people. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2005 : 21:08:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by soda_farl
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
quote:
Originally posted by soda_farl
I don't think we should confuse healthy sexuality which does not preclude the healthy bonding between males and females with the outright exploitation of people.
And I don't think you should confuse your sunday school teacher's opinions on the matter with what is healthy sexuality.
Okay, you tell me if what your understanding of healthy sexuality is and whether it involves treating women with respect.
I'm sorry. Due to a browser error I initially posted this comment in the wrong thread. I've moved it back here where it belongs.
I do not think treating women with respect excludes deriving pleasure from seeing images of them naked.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 08/18/2005 21:09:20 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2005 : 21:12:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by soda_farl
...they would not be participating in the industry if they had a modicum of self esteem.
There appear to be not a few porn stars and successful strippers who would disagree with that assessment. It's pretty clear, to me, that many of them find their work to be empowering, and not the least bit humiliating. To be good at it, after all, requires more skills than just taking off one's clothing in front of a camera or an audience.
It's also pretty clear, when it comes to those porn stars who self-direct, self-produce and self-distribute, that the people being exploited are those who purchase the DVDs, magazines and other merchandise. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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soda_farl
New Member
43 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2005 : 22:05:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Originally posted by soda_farl
...they would not be participating in the industry if they had a modicum of self esteem.
There appear to be not a few porn stars and successful strippers who would disagree with that assessment. It's pretty clear, to me, that many of them find their work to be empowering, and not the least bit humiliating. To be good at it, after all, requires more skills than just taking off one's clothing in front of a camera or an audience.
Actually, that's not clear at all, and unfortunately, my statement is not based on mere conjecture. You will find the overwhelming majority of strippers and women in the porn industry take drugs to numb their pain. And please, you must be joking when you talk about the quality of acting in porn movies!
It's also pretty clear, when it comes to those porn stars who self-direct, self-produce and self-distribute, that the people being exploited are those who purchase the DVDs, magazines and other merchandise.
And what about the underage girls who participate in the movies? They really have a swell future ahead of them, don't they? You might not be aware of this, but many of them have become infected with HIV. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2005 : 22:09:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by soda_farl
And what about the underage girls who participate in the movies? They really have a swell future ahead of them, don't they? You might not be aware of this, but many of them have become infected with HIV.
Just what I expected: you generalized and said that nobody gets into the porn business if they have a modicum of self-esteem, and when called on it, you changed the subject.
Bravo! You can dodge-and-weave with the best of 'em. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2005 : 07:10:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by trishran
Having worked in the porn magazine industry for a couple of years, I have to make some observations: I never met a single woman who was forced or abused into working for any well-known men's magazines. Many of the magazines were pretty much written and run by women. Many male by-lines belong to women writers. Also, while in the industry, I heard that most, if not all, letters allegedly from readers were written by [mostly] female writers.
As far as I know, porn that involves actual children is "homemade". There are no magazines publishing such things. [There are mags like, "Barely Legal" which take women who are over 18 and small, and dress them to look even younger, but again, those are consenting adult women]
It's like this: men respond to visual stimuli, women like words. Men look at photos, women read boddice-rippers. Sexual interest is normal, healthy and fun. Sex crimes are horrible, but there is a huge difference between assault and looking at pictures. As far as I know, the argument that sexy photos create a climate that encourages crime was first posited by religious activists in the 1980s. It was later adopted by feminists in the late 80s-early 90s. This argument is made for political reasons, but there is no science to back it up, as far as I know.
Actually, Gert Martin Hald of Denmark's University of Aarhus conducted a study of 200 young men and women aged 18 to 30 and “failed on nearly all measures to find negative effects” from video porn.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8757711/
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2005 : 07:28:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by soda_farl
And what about the underage girls who participate in the movies? They really have a swell future ahead of them, don't they? You might not be aware of this, but many of them have become infected with HIV.
Actually, my understanding is that HIV is not common in the industry, at least not now. Indeed, when an actor did test positive, it was big news:quote:
The nation's multibillion-dollar pornographic film industry virtually shut itself down this week after producers learned that at least two of its actors had been infected with the virus that causes AIDS. . . The last recorded H.I.V. infections in the pornography business here were in 1999.
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trishran
Skeptic Friend
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2005 : 15:26:18 [Permalink]
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Soda Farl says: Have you ever read "The Bottom Feeders" the biography of the Shaw brothers? One of the former employees who had a change of heart about the porn industry unequivocally stated that he had never met a porn actress who did not have a history of sexual abuse. They might not have been physically forced into participating, but they would not be participating in the industry if they had a modicum of self esteem. That is not to say that there are not instances of women indeed being forced into porn.
I haven't read that book. But in "The Nurture Assumption", the author reports on a study comparing the childhoods oftroubled people with Air Force officers. The researchers who designed the study expected that the troubled people would have had higher rates of having been abused. They were startled to find that the officers had a nearly identical rate of having been abused as kids.
And, I must say that I find the argument of Christian theologians - that sexually explicit depictions turns women into object -unconvincing, especially when you cite magazines full of genetilia and breasts. In my years working with porn, I didn't see any that were isolated body parts - the photos that showed genetilia always showed pretty much the entire form of the person, and almost always the full face. And read the articles - they don't describe fantasies of vacant bodies, - they describe relationships, or at least the possibility of relationships. [Just because a relationship is fleeting, doesn't necessarily negate its meaning to the participants]
Also, there are religions, with long histories of being part of stable civilizations, such as India, where explicit depictions of sexuality were incorporated into places of worship. |
trish |
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