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skepticality
Skeptic Friend

USA
105 Posts

Posted - 08/14/2005 :  01:00:04  Show Profile  Visit skepticality's Homepage Send skepticality a Private Message
Ok,

So in further proof that the ID crowd has extended outside the bounds of it's little cage...

People in a NON-Religion / Science board have begun the elementary school rants about how science has so many holes that it somehow is as much as a 'theory' as anything else.

http://www.podcastalley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3869&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30

Go ahead... these people wouldn't know what hit them... and a lot of folks over there would love it, they just don't know how to fight against the god-squad.


Derek Colanduno
host - skepticality
http://www.skepticality.com/

GeeMack
SFN Regular

USA
1093 Posts

Posted - 08/14/2005 :  12:43:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send GeeMack a Private Message
There is a weird phenomenon pervading society these days. It seems that for many people it's almost fashionable to be unintelligent.

Lately I've had discussions with several people who appear to be capable, rational thinkers. Five years ago these people probably would have taken the general theory of evolution to be sensible and correct, with thoughtful acceptance of the valid science supporting it. But today these same people abandon all reason and say stupid things like, "Yeah, right, me, descended from monkeys? I don't think so." And yes, many of them would just barely consider themselves religious.

Oddly enough (or maybe understandably enough), these people often support socially destructive things like prohibitions, Bush's campaign of terror against the citizens of Iraq, reduction of freedoms, and increases in regulations and taxes. They avoid personal responsibility and often seem to believe that nobody else has the ability or desire to be responsible for themselves either.

I have only my own observations to go on here, but it seems they get some pleasure or satisfaction out of being weak and fearful people. That abandonment of intellect appears to help them in an almost conscious effort to continue living in a realm of fear. Weird indeed.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26020 Posts

Posted - 08/14/2005 :  15:32:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
One of the main proponents of ID recently said something to the effect of, "the scientific arguments against ID represent an attack on the people by intellectuals!" The attitude is part of a cyclical backlash against the time, decades ago, when "better living through chemistry" might have been taken seriously.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26020 Posts

Posted - 08/14/2005 :  18:25:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
Hey, Derek, be careful with that "no peer-reviewed ID articles" thing. As Jack B. pointed out, there are peer-reviewed articles supporting ID. The problem is, of course, that almost all of them were reviewed by people outside the proper area of expertise, were given a preferential "behind-the-scenes" review, or otherwise don't live up to what most scientists would call "proper peer review." So asking for it gets one into a discussion of what is "real" peer review versus "fake" peer review, and the actual point of the discussion is lost.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4955 Posts

Posted - 08/14/2005 :  18:47:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

Hey, Derek, be careful with that "no peer-reviewed ID articles" thing. As Jack B. pointed out, there are peer-reviewed articles supporting ID. The problem is, of course, that almost all of them were reviewed by people outside the proper area of expertise, were given a preferential "behind-the-scenes" review, or otherwise don't live up to what most scientists would call "proper peer review." So asking for it gets one into a discussion of what is "real" peer review versus "fake" peer review, and the actual point of the discussion is lost.

Moreover, even when an ID article makes it into a peer-reviewed journal, the ultimate impact in terms of supporting ID is pretty close to nil. You can the the Discovery Institute's proud list here. But look through Panda's Thumb and you'll come across some sound refutations-- or at least reason to doubt the triumph of the DI's claims about ID. (Cute, wasn't it?)
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the_ignored
SFN Addict

2561 Posts

Posted - 08/14/2005 :  20:12:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send the_ignored a Private Message
Feel free to use anything from the sources of information that I made use of here, here and here and here if any of it is of any use.

You can glean some information from those, I think. I hope, anyway.

>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.

What brought that on? this. Original posting here.

Another example of this guy's lunacy here.
Edited by - the_ignored on 08/14/2005 20:15:57
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 08/14/2005 :  20:43:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
I've often wondered how someone with little to no education, training, or research in biology feels themself qualified to make any decisions whatever concerning the validity of the Theory of Evolution.

Then Dave posted a link in another thread to a website that lists computer tech support "horror stories" about idiot customers. I was struck by how similar the two phenomena really are--people who obviously know absolutely freaking nothing about computers feel themselves totally qualified to lecture others with "their opinion" of a situation.

Consider the following story. You tell me what motivates a woman to act in this fashion, and I'll tell you how otherwise smart people can reject the Theory of Evolution.

quote:
There is nothing worse than the customer who will only believe his or her own self-diagnosis. A woman and her daughter were lingering around by the Macintosh display in our store. She told me a story that I never really grasped, but the general problem was that her daughter saved a report to a floppy using the Mac they had at home. Later, when they tried to read the file, they couldn't find it. They had put one disk in after another, but every directory looked just like the first disk. She KNEW what the problem was and would be damned if I would tell her different. SHE knew that the disks were all kept in a stack on the desk, and that the disks all had the same data as the first one because the topmost disk "leaked" onto the others. I told her the correct way to look for the lost file on a Mac, but she wasn't willing to accept my answer. She wandered off, and I went to help another customer. Fifteen minutes later, I noticed that she had a second salesman cornered and was making "leaking" gestures as she presumably told him the same story. He talked for a while and demonstrated how to read disk directories. She gave him the same blank stare that she gave me and wandered off again. Not good enough! Fifteen minutes later she had a THIRD salesman cornered and started going through her while story again. The salesman looked like he was ready to pop, so I stepped back in.

Knowing she'd never leave until we told her what she wanted to hear, I told her that after some further thought, I realized she was right. There was nothing that could be done to save her daughter's file, but in the future she should always keep each floppy in a ZipLoc bag to be sure they don't leak on each other in the future. She was instantly happy and went on her way. I'll make a bet she still keeps her disks in sealed plastic bags.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 08/14/2005 20:54:51
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skepticality
Skeptic Friend

USA
105 Posts

Posted - 08/16/2005 :  12:25:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit skepticality's Homepage Send skepticality a Private Message
Well,

The guy over there has deteriorated to just personal attacks...

[quote="kickasspodcast"]I forgot to ask!

So Dr. M-

How is that Skeptic Friends Network working out for ya buddy?

Making some new friends are we?[/quote]

From: http://www.podcastalley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3869&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=90

Sorry Dr. M! I almost forgot that I was dealing with people that can't handle discussion over there... :|

Derek Colanduno
host - skepticality
http://www.skepticality.com/
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4955 Posts

Posted - 08/16/2005 :  12:49:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by skepticality

Well,

The guy over there has deteriorated to just personal attacks...

[quote="kickasspodcast"]I forgot to ask!

So Dr. M-

How is that Skeptic Friends Network working out for ya buddy?

Making some new friends are we?


From: http://www.podcastalley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3869&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=90

Sorry Dr. M! I almost forgot that I was dealing with people that can't handle discussion over there... :|[/quote]Personal attacks and odd Google-stalking. And is Mab really supposed to be insulted by the fact that he posts at SFN?

And all of this from a guy calling himself "kickasspodcast"! Why not just call yourself "I'm really cool-- I promise!" and be done with it.
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skepticality
Skeptic Friend

USA
105 Posts

Posted - 08/16/2005 :  14:31:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit skepticality's Homepage Send skepticality a Private Message
quote:
And all of this from a guy calling himself "kickasspodcast"! Why not just call yourself "I'm really cool-- I promise!" and be done with it.


HAHAHAHA,

That pretty much sums the whole experience up... right there.

Derek Colanduno
host - skepticality
http://www.skepticality.com/
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GeeMack
SFN Regular

USA
1093 Posts

Posted - 08/16/2005 :  16:08:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send GeeMack a Private Message
Wow, what a dolt. It's so hard to respond to people with loose connections in their logic circuits. When they bring in totally absurd comments like, "You scientists are always trying to prove god doesn't exist," pretty much all chance at reasoning with them is lost. I think there's a lot of truth to the comments in that thread about people's faith being so shallow that they live in fear of something being discovered that might shatter it.

People like that seem to be so insecure. I've been accused of being an egomaniac because I suggested to someone that there is a requirement for evidence if something is to be accepted as fact. "Why is it you always have to be right," they ask. Well, maybe it would be a nicer, more polite world if we just take turns being right. Okay, let's negotiate. I'll let you be right about... hmmm... space aliens and intelligent design, and I'll take... uh... no such thing as ghosts and voodoo dolls don't really work. Happy happy world.
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9682 Posts

Posted - 08/16/2005 :  16:20:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist

quote:
Originally posted by skepticality

Well,

The guy over there has deteriorated to just personal attacks...

quote:
I forgot to ask!

So Dr. M-

How is that Skeptic Friends Network working out for ya buddy?

Making some new friends are we?


From: http://www.podcastalley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3869&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=90

Sorry Dr. M! I almost forgot that I was dealing with people that can't handle discussion over there... :|
Personal attacks and odd Google-stalking.
Not odd Google stalking. My signature in the Podcast forum says "Staff member Skeptic Friends Network" so he found it through there.

Besides, every time he makes a google search for Skeptic Friends Network, he's helping us get a better Google rating! So I'm fine with it.

quote:
And is Mab really supposed to be insulted by the fact that he posts at SFN?
I don't know, should I be?
I feel proud and honoured to be a staff member.
quote:
And all of this from a guy calling himself "kickasspodcast"! Why not just call yourself "I'm really cool-- I promise!" and be done with it.

I never really understood what his grievance is, other than he don't like people telling him he's wrong. I'm on a quest for knowledge, and I appreciate being told if I'm wrong. I may not always like to hear it, but once I've calmed down and applied some critical thinking about it, I'll change my mind.

And Derek, I don't blame you for jerks over at podcast. When you invited us there, I pretty much expected to meet them. It's deja-vu from the back when we did battle at Skeptic Times (that wasn't as much skeptic as is was a teen-age Texas creationist hangaround).

Remember that one, Ricky?

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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skepticality
Skeptic Friend

USA
105 Posts

Posted - 08/16/2005 :  17:55:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit skepticality's Homepage Send skepticality a Private Message
Well,

I did it in a way to get some of the folks that I know over there to slide this way. A LOT of the people that are quiet about it over there, because they fear the Moderator that does the big godcast... Little do they know, Craig usually won't hate people just for what they think. You have to actually get REALLY personal for him to shut you down. Also, Craig, is a pretty level headed godcaster, there are many others that aren't. People in podcasting, fear offending people left and right, unless it is about certain political issues. A few people have sent me private messages about Kil and Dr. M, thought it was really cool to see people from a site like this.... We might pick up some new people here.

So, it had it's reasons. No one over at PCA likes kickass, and he always sticks his foot in his mouth. Lots of people don't bother talking to people like that. I do, because if you don't shove people like that down... it eventually makes it worse. And that was a topic I finally had a reason to do it in.

and Kil...

On the 'numbers'... over at PCA tons of people online at once, but the same 20-30 people always posting.

Lots of people that as ONE question, then leave... never to be seen again.

Derek Colanduno
host - skepticality
http://www.skepticality.com/
Edited by - skepticality on 08/16/2005 17:57:37
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13474 Posts

Posted - 08/16/2005 :  19:01:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message
quote:
Derek:
and Kil...

On the 'numbers'... over at PCA tons of people online at once, but the same 20-30 people always posting.

Lots of people that as ONE question, then leave... never to be seen again.


Yeah, huh… All in all that little bit of weirdness, attacking Mab with that lame skeptic friend comment, gave me an opening to plug SFN. Really, I meant what I posted there. I couldn't care less about their numbers and I don't really watch ours that closely. (I leave that to @tomic and Dave. ) Hope some of their readers do give us a look, however…

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9682 Posts

Posted - 08/16/2005 :  19:41:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
Obnoxious people like kickass doesn't bother me much... They are initially fun to argue with though. The trick is to keep them ranting, while at the same time reason with them in order to address the fence-sitters (see Dave_W's article on Fence-sitting) and the silent lurkers, and giving them food for thought.

And then there's the bonus for getting people to check out our site.

quote:
Originally posted by Skepticality

No one over at PCA likes kickass, and he always sticks his foot in his mouth. Lots of people don't bother talking to people like that. I do, because if you don't shove people like that down... it eventually makes it worse. And that was a topic I finally had a reason to do it in.
I don't like bullies, and kickass sure looks like one. Back in primary school I wasn't equipped to handle them, but now I am. At least in written form.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26020 Posts

Posted - 08/16/2005 :  19:57:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Kil

I couldn't care less about their numbers and I don't really watch ours that closely. (I leave that to @tomic and Dave. )
You're leaving it to @tomic, then, 'cause I haven't really looked at any of our numbers since @tomic last pointed them out.

Oh, well I did go count to see that we'd had 365 new registered users in the last 364 days, for the Summary. @tomic had nothing to do with that.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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