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Siberia
SFN Addict

Brazil
2322 Posts

Posted - 10/31/2005 :  04:52:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Siberia's Homepage  Send Siberia an AOL message  Send Siberia a Yahoo! Message Send Siberia a Private Message
Filthy: it's spelt coccyx.

"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa

"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 10/31/2005 :  05:26:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Siberia

Filthy: it's spelt coccyx.

I stand corredted yet again!

Thanks!


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Siberia
SFN Addict

Brazil
2322 Posts

Posted - 10/31/2005 :  05:30:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Siberia's Homepage  Send Siberia an AOL message  Send Siberia a Yahoo! Message Send Siberia a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by filthy

quote:
Originally posted by Siberia

Filthy: it's spelt coccyx.

I stand corredted yet again!

Thanks!




No problem!

"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa

"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9672 Posts

Posted - 10/31/2005 :  08:30:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by markie
Dr. M, I'm not clear on what the cytochrome C analysis you posted is supposed to indicate, but it certainly is interesting.

Given the size of cytochrome, the percentage difference between species are good indicators of the percentage difference of the whole genome. Since transcription error occurs randomly, this means that even dormant DNA gets mutated, and any hidden programming waiting to be activated would suffer just as much "damage" from mutation as the rest of the genome.
About 30% of the genome has been affected from birds' and plants' common ancestor on the evolutionary way to the common bird, yet you propose that pre-programmed capacity for flight has remained intact?


quote:
Dave W wrote, "Unless you want to argue for multiple evolutions of amniotic creatures". Of course I see this as quite possible given my premise. I don't think the fossil or phylogenetic evidence is clear one way or the other.

If I said this would be very unlikely, it would border on the fallacy "argument of incredulity", that the two different paths of evolution would end in exactly the same solution. We have many examples of convergent evolution: Where different species develop the same kind of traits that is needed for their survival in their place in the ecosystem. Yet, "beneath the skin" of these species, the flesh and bone is different. Both bird and bat have developed wings, yet their solutions are very different. The raccoon and the raccoon-dog look similar, but they are come from different families, and are not alike on the inside. A DNA comparison would absolutely prove that amniotic creatures all belong to the same branch in the evolutionary tree.


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Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 10/31/2005 08:41:17
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 11/01/2005 :  00:18:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by markie
HH wrote, "You wouldn't be referring to the Urantia Book by any chance, would you?" Bingo, good detective work. It can be read online in many places. A look at the table of contents will either give you goosebumps or a good laugh.
It gives me goosebumps to think that any living person would get their ideas on science from such a book, especially in light of their unwillingness to subject such a tome to skeptical scrutiny on the basis that it's "mostly religious in nature."

Markie, quite frankly I don't care if you're not "making this stuff up out of thin air" if the source you are referencing did.

If anyone cares to see where markie gets his ideas on life, the Universe, and everything, here's a copy of The Urantia book online. In it we learn this about evolution:
quote:
BASIC evolutionary material life -- premind life -- is the formulation of the Master Physical Controllers and the life-impartation ministry of the Seven Master Spirits in conjunction with the active ministration of the ordained Life Carriers. As a result of the co-ordinate function of this threefold creativity there develops organismal physical capacity for mind -- material mechanisms for intelligent reaction to external environmental stimuli and, later on, to internal stimuli, influences taking origin in the organismal mind itself.

Already in it we see several of markie's conceits, including a hierarchy of spiritual laborers and mention of "material" processes distinct from "mind."

It goes on:
quote:
There are, then, three distinct levels of life production and evolution:

1. The physical-energy domain -- mind-capacity production.

2. The mind ministry of the adjutant spirits -- impinging upon spirit capacity.

3. The spirit endowment of mortal mind -- culminating in Thought Adjuster bestowal.

The mechanical-nonteachable levels of organismal environmental response are the domains of the physical controllers. The adjutant mind-spirits activate and regulate the adaptative or nonmechanical-teachable types of mind -- those response mechanisms of organisms capable of learning from experience. And as the spirit adjutants thus manipulate mind potentials, so do the Life Carriers exercise considerable discretionary control over the environmental aspects of evolutionary processes right up to the time of the appearance of human will -- the ability to know God and the power of choosing to worship him.


Have your eyes glazed over yet? Apparently the book is jammed packed with such nonsense. Honestly, I find that I can't take very much of it myself. The Urantia seems to appeal to mostly new-agey seekers with a christian upbringing. Indeed, while the book claims to unite all the world's religions under a much larger spiritual truth, it is clearly rooted in christian mythos, with an entire section devoted to the figure of Jesus Christ and his followers.

Concerning the origin of The Urantia, the Skeptic's Dictionary article reports on the findings of Martin Gardner:
quote:
Originally, he says, the UB was the "Bible" of a cult of separatist Seventh Day Adventists, allegedly channeled by Wilfred Kellogg and edited by founder William Sadler, a Chicago psychiatrist. According to Gardner, in addition to an array of bizarre claims about planets and names of angels, etc., the Urantia Book contains many Adventist doctrines. Sadler died in 1969 at the age of 94 but his spiritual group lives on. Sadler got his start working for Dr. John Harvey Kellogg, Adventist surgeon, health and diet author, and brother of cornflake king William Keith Kellogg. These are the same Kellogg brothers who were featured and lampooned in the movie "The Road to Wellville."


Adherents, and I suppose that would include markie, instead believe that The Urantia is a revelation from God or "higher beings" that appeared out of thin air in fully developed form.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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moakley
SFN Regular

USA
1884 Posts

Posted - 11/01/2005 :  05:26:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send moakley a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert

If anyone cares to see where markie gets his ideas on life, the Universe, and everything, here's a copy of The Urantia book online. In it we learn this about evolution:

Just reading a bit of the book it seems reasonable that this is markie's source. Before I read more I would like markie to confirm that it either is or isn't his source.

Life is good

Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous
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moakley
SFN Regular

USA
1884 Posts

Posted - 11/01/2005 :  05:39:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send moakley a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

Mark, if you don't like what GeeMack and Moakley calls you, just ignore them.

Show that you can be more constructive than them,

I am guilty of this, but honestly how many of you took me serious when I posted the following?

quote:
Intriguing. Do you believe that the release of this program on Earth was still in beta? Or do you believe that this program was beta tested on some other planet in some other solar system, perhaps in some other galaxy? Judging by the results of the program on this planet I suspect that it was still a beta release. Seems to be full of bugs. Don't you think?



Probably none, but markie seemed to incorporate it into his evolving idea(s).

quote:
Hey you sound as if you've read what I have. First of all, the beings who plant life work from a more general program and tweak it to meet the specific conditions of our planet. Nothing unusual there. About the beta, it's uncanny that you should say that because some planets are test planets where some new aspects of the life experiment are tried. And ours happened to be one of them, apparently.



Perhaps markie was poking fun back at me, but it certainly was not evident considering his other post. nuff said.

edited to fix quotes

Life is good

Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous
Edited by - moakley on 11/01/2005 05:40:55
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 11/01/2005 :  06:19:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
BASIC evolutionary material life -- premind life -- is the formulation of the Master Physical Controllers and the life-impartation ministry of the Seven Master Spirits in conjunction with the active ministration of the ordained Life Carriers. As a result of the co-ordinate function of this threefold creativity there develops organismal physical capacity for mind -- material mechanisms for intelligent reaction to external environmental stimuli and, later on, to internal stimuli, influences taking origin in the organismal mind itself.

Oh dear... Oh dear, oh dear... I don't know what this is, but I do know what it ain't....

I think I'll give The Urantia a miss. I have small patience with gibberish in these, my declining years.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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furshur
SFN Regular

USA
1536 Posts

Posted - 11/01/2005 :  06:48:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send furshur a Private Message

quote:
quote:
BASIC evolutionary material life -- premind life -- is the formulation of the Master Physical Controllers and the life-impartation ministry of the Seven Master Spirits in conjunction with the active ministration of the ordained Life Carriers. As a result of the co-ordinate function of this threefold creativity there develops organismal physical capacity for mind -- material mechanisms for intelligent reaction to external environmental stimuli and, later on, to internal stimuli, influences taking origin in the organismal mind itself.



Oh dear... Oh dear, oh dear... I don't know what this is, but I do know what it ain't....

I think I'll give The Urantia a miss. I have small patience with gibberish in these, my declining years.

I don't know, Filthy after reading that I feel my body vibrating I think I am having and epiphany... Oh wait, never mind, it was just gas.


If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know.
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markie
Skeptic Friend

Canada
356 Posts

Posted - 11/01/2005 :  08:35:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send markie a Private Message
Moakley, you must have missed my post where I said outright to HH that he was correct that it was the Urantia book. Regarding whether I took you 'seriously', I took it that you were talking from a speculative point of view, 'tis all.

Dr. M, you said, "About 30% of the genome has been affected from birds' and plants' common ancestor on the evolutionary way to the common bird, yet you propose that pre-programmed capacity for flight has remained intact?" I propose that some things change and some things remain (relatively) intact. Some areas of the genome are more suspectible to change than others, imo. And we know that some creatures like frogs and sharks have changed relatively little over dozens of millions of years. There could be many reasons for this, like a very accurate DNA polymerase. (If such is the case, then the genetic coding for the DNA polymerase enzyme itself must have remained relatively intact for a long time.)

HH so you know, the Urantia 'movement' has it's own skeptics, that is people who love the book but are skeptical of all of it's claims. Such people borrow from it what they will to form their own worldview. There's alot of freethinkers in the movement. Afterall the book itself speaks against dogmatism whether in religion or science.

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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9672 Posts

Posted - 11/01/2005 :  09:26:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by markie
Dr. M, you said, "About 30% of the genome has been affected from birds' and plants' common ancestor on the evolutionary way to the common bird, yet you propose that pre-programmed capacity for flight has remained intact?" I propose that some things change and some things remain (relatively) intact.
But geneticists have evidence that all of the genome is equally susceptible to mutations. All parts of the DNA looks and works the same in the copy/replication-sense. The only parts of the genome that stays relatively the same are genes that are absolutely necessary to keep the cell/bacterial alive, because such mutations would produce a non-viable offspring.

quote:
Some areas of the genome are more susceptible to change than others, IMO.
That may be true for DNA-inclusion by HERV type viruses, but ordinary transcription errors, and mutations caused by decay of C14 are evenly distributed across the entire DNA.

quote:
And we know that some creatures like frogs and sharks have changed relatively little over dozens of millions of years.
That is because they are fairly well adapted to their environment. The mutations in the genome continues, and has a constant rate. It's just the physical manifestations of the mutations that has been temporarily (on geological time scale) halted, because deviations in the current forms are mostly bad.

Changes, mutations in the genome are so constant and linear that scientists are now using changes in the DNA as a time dating method.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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astropin
SFN Regular

USA
970 Posts

Posted - 11/01/2005 :  10:08:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send astropin a Private Message
It's been a long time since I've read anything as bizarre as the "Urantia", but I found Alice in Wonderland more enlightening.

I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.

You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.

Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.

Infinitus est numerus stultorum
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 11/01/2005 :  11:01:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by markie
HH so you know, the Urantia 'movement' has it's own skeptics, that is people who love the book but are skeptical of all of it's claims. Such people borrow from it what they will to form their own worldview. There's alot of freethinkers in the movement. Afterall the book itself speaks against dogmatism whether in religion or science.
Oh, I'm sure. Just like the bible, right? Kernel of truth in all the ancient symbolism?

Markie, it doesn't matter to this discussion whether or not you find any of The Urantia's spiritual hogwash enlightening, but it does matter if you are going to use it as a basis for your scientific worldview. It was important to drag the thing out into the light of day so the other skeptics could make up their minds about the source of much of your (dis)information.

And just so you know where I stand, I feel anything short of complete rejection of this mumbo jumbo is an exercise in supreme gullibility. But I'm sure you guessed that already.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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Hawks
SFN Regular

Canada
1383 Posts

Posted - 11/01/2005 :  18:07:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Hawks's Homepage Send Hawks a Private Message
quote:
Some areas of the genome are more susceptible to change than others, IMO.
Generally speaking, there is a higher rate of recombination in the sub-telomeric regions than in centromeric regions (i.e. applies only to eukaryotes). These regions, therefore, change faster than others. (This does not make your ideas any more scientific. Weren't we discussing whether your ideas were falsifiable for a while or was that another thread?)

METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden!
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markie
Skeptic Friend

Canada
356 Posts

Posted - 11/01/2005 :  20:57:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send markie a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Hawks Weren't we discussing whether your ideas were falsifiable for a while or was that another thread?)
Yeah, I think David has raised the key concern, that the genetic programming for evolutionary unfolding would have long ago been compromised by mutation and cellular mistakes. And I think it has been compromised, but to different degrees, leaving some organisms with fairly good evolutionary development potential and others with very little. I suspect that the evolutionary outfolding programming is embedded in very critical gene areas so that it is retained as much as possible.

That such supersitions of functionality in the genome could exist is entirely plausible, since such is already well known in genetics. In addition, the DNA of a one celled embryo contains the core programming information on how to grow and differentiate, and the unfolding of one stage of development is the signalling of the commencement of the next stage, and so on. I mean, we haven't even begun to scratch the surface of the details behind that kind of hierarchial, cascading programming. When we do, then we will have a better idea of the possible nature of the genetic programming behind evolution's progress, imo.

Predictions of the evolutionary programming idea? For one, the appearance, in widely dissimilar organims, of isolated features which are remarkably similar, both on the large scale and on the small molecular - machinery scale. For another, similar evolutionary steps occurring at more than one time and place. For another, portions of genetic sequence from very disparate organisms will occassionally show unexpected similarity.



Edited by - markie on 11/01/2005 20:58:45
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