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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
 Posted - 12/24/2005 : 06:29:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
that's why Yahweh doesn't immediately strike down parents when they abuse their children, the parents have to learn to exercise their free will properly and responsibly, and the children have to learn to overcome adversity properly and responsibly.
WTF?!?!?!?!! |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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hippy4christ
Skeptic Friend
193 Posts |
Posted - 12/24/2005 : 12:28:53 [Permalink]
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Dave:
quote:
Why? If one has "accepted Christ as their Lord and Saviour," then one is "saved" and it doesn't matter one bit how irresponsible or morally reprehensible one acts after that.
Negative. Selective viewing of data.
Hbr 10:26-27 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
quote:
Any act can be forgiven, but a failure of faith is a ticket to Hell.
Negative. Selective viewing of data.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
pleco:
quote:
WTF?!?!?!?!!
Could you be more specific?
Hippy |
Faith is believing what you are told, whether it's by a priest or a scientist. A person's scientific beliefs are ones based on personal observation and experimentation.
Lists of Logical Fallacies |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 12/24/2005 : 13:41:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by hippy4christ
The first thing to realize is that, if there is indeed an afterlife, then the pleasures and pains of this life are insignificant. Next, everyone is going to die sometime (unless they're raptured or something) and their spiritual state is more important then their physical state.
(emphasis added) It always amazes me when I read Billy Graham's advice column or hear any number of televangelist say essentially this same thing. An then at other times they tell us how much more meaningful their life is or any believer in Jesus the Christ. I suppose it boils down to the point they are making currently.
A Christian's life can't be any more meaningful or significant than mine is, I have no illusions of another. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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hippy4christ
Skeptic Friend
193 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2005 : 17:39:37 [Permalink]
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moakley:
I didn't say that anyone's life was insignificant. I said that the pleasures and pains of this life are insignificant.
Pleco:
I recently considered that may have mistakenly interpreted what I said to mean that Yahweh wishes that parents abuse their children so that He can teach them lessons. This is not what I meant. What I'm saying is that when people do bad things Yahweh makes the best of the situation, and one of those ways is by teaching people lessons. To go back to the example from Bruce Almighty, Yahweh could use all that death and destruction (which someone else caused) to teach all those people how to properly react to death and destruction.
Hippy |
Faith is believing what you are told, whether it's by a priest or a scientist. A person's scientific beliefs are ones based on personal observation and experimentation.
Lists of Logical Fallacies |
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2005 : 18:47:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Hippy:
What I'm saying is that when people do bad things Yahweh makes the best of the situation, and one of those ways is by teaching people lessons. To go back to the example from Bruce Almighty, Yahweh could use all that death and destruction (which someone else caused) to teach all those people how to properly react to death and destruction.
Then in this case, since he is omniscient and omnipotent, Yahweh would be an asshole. |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2006 : 16:01:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by hippy4christ
I didn't say that anyone's life was insignificant. I said that the pleasures and pains of this life are insignificant.
And you missed my point. I was simply making an observation that Christians will claim both "that the pleasures and pains of this life are insignificant." and "that their life is so much more meaningful" than a non-christian. I'm sure that each statement serves a purpose depending upon the argument being made, but I view the statements as contradictory. So for a single person to sincerely make both statements, independent of the other, is either incredibly inconsistent or intentionally deceitful. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2006 : 16:17:36 [Permalink]
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Yes, which is why I always wondered by christians (and other religious persons) get upset over their loved ones dying, especially children. Why get upset over 9/11? Didn't the christians that died go to heaven?
My opinion is that christians (especially Western versions) do not have faith in their faith. They have not committed themselves to let go of their attachments (almost buddhist-like in a way) because they doubt at a basic, instinctual level. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2006 : 17:27:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by hippy4christ
quote:
Any act can be forgiven, but a failure of faith is a ticket to Hell.
Negative. Selective viewing of data.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Doesn't Rome 10:9 say "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
In earlier threads you claimed there were no serious contradictions in the Bible. And here I find one that seems contradictory to Mat 7:21 you quoted. I think you should make up your mind. Otherwise, I'd be tempted to say you too are guilty of selectively viewing data.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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hippy4christ
Skeptic Friend
193 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2006 : 13:18:51 [Permalink]
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R. Wreck:
quote:
Then in this case, since he is omniscient and omnipotent, Yahweh would be an asshole.
Define asshole.
Moakley:
quote:
I was simply making an observation that Christians will claim both "that the pleasures and pains of this life are insignificant." and "that their life is so much more meaningful" than a non-christian. I'm sure that each statement serves a purpose depending upon the argument being made, but I view the statements as contradictory.
Some who call themselves Christians will claim both, I do not. Now, when we say that a life is significant or insignificant, we are talking about signigicant or insignificant to a certain purpose. For example, a child's life is significant to the purpose of the child's mother being happy. That's usually what we mean when we make the general statement that a particular life is significant. Since Yahweh loves everyone and doesn't want them to fall to the point where he doesn't love them, everyone is significant to Yahweh being happy. However, if someone doesn't follow Yahweh and isn't helping in the ministry, then for that time they are insignificant to the purpose of performing the ministry.
Now, when I call the pleasures and pains of life insignificant, I mean insignificant to the purpose of people's happiness. All of the pleasures and pains of this life will usually only last about 70 years, whereas eternity is eternity. Anyone who makes it to heaven will have much more happiness for a longer period of time than anyone on earth has known, therefore, the pleasures and pains of this life are insignificant compared to the next life. Everyone's life is significant to the purpose of Yahweh being happy, but not everyone's life is significant to the purpose of performing the ministry of Yahweh.
Pleco:
quote:
My opinion is that christians (especially Western versions) do not have faith in their faith. They have not committed themselves to let go of their attachments (almost buddhist-like in a way) because they doubt at a basic, instinctual level.
Agreed.
Mabuse:
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Indeed, if you honestly believe (and do that which always accompanies honest belief) you shall be saved. Whether or not you keep your salvation depends on whether or not you keep your honest belief. Someone who honestly believes will do the will of the Father in heaven.
Hippy |
Faith is believing what you are told, whether it's by a priest or a scientist. A person's scientific beliefs are ones based on personal observation and experimentation.
Lists of Logical Fallacies |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2006 : 15:46:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Indeed, if you honestly believe (and do that which always accompanies honest belief) you shall be saved.
(Emphasis mine)
Ah, but that isn't explicitly stated. That is an interpretation on your part of the verse for which you have no basis.
Only confess with your mouth the belief that is in your heart.
quote:
Whether or not you keep your salvation depends on whether or not you keep your honest belief.
I agree with you that is a reasonable interpretation of the verse. However...
quote:
Someone who honestly believes will do the will of the Father in heaven.
I disagree.
Unless it is the will of the father that some of his followers should act like complete ass-holes. I've met such people in the church: they truly believe, and they confess they believe, but they are still suffering from the social dysfunctions they had before they got saved.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2006 : 18:44:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Hippy:
R. Wreck:
quote:
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Then in this case, since he is omniscient and omnipotent, Yahweh would be an asshole.
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Define asshole.
asshole:
quote:
a stupid, incompetent, or detestable person
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The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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hippy4christ
Skeptic Friend
193 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2006 : 14:32:25 [Permalink]
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Mabuse:
quote:
Ah, but that isn't explicitly stated. That is an interpretation on your part of the verse for which you have no basis.
Only confess with your mouth the belief that is in your heart.
I'm not interpreting, I'm simply making a statement of fact: honest belief in Jesus produces certain results. Hence, if you do not have that which accompanies honest belief, you do not have honest belief.
quote:
I disagree.
Unless it is the will of the father that some of his followers should act like complete ass-holes. I've met such people in the church: they truly believe, and they confess they believe, but they are still suffering from the social dysfunctions they had before they got saved.
Or they never actually had an honest belief in the first place, and they're deceiving themselves when they say that they have an honest belief. Maybe they have a belief in what someone has told them about Jesus, maybe they have an honest belief but are temporarily ignoring it. If someone is not acting according to the will of the Father, then they are disobedient.
R.Wreck:
quote:
asshole:
quote:
a stupid, incompetent, or detestable person
Yahweh is omniscient, so He's not stupid, and 'detestable' is subjective, so we can't objectively discuss it. That leaves incompetent. To say that He is incompetent is to say that He is not fulfilling His purpose in the best way. Yahweh's purpose is to create people which love Him. So, in the "Bruce Almighty tidal wave" scenario, what way is there that you know would lead more people to love Yahweh than the way that was presented in the movie?
Hippy |
Faith is believing what you are told, whether it's by a priest or a scientist. A person's scientific beliefs are ones based on personal observation and experimentation.
Lists of Logical Fallacies |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2006 : 14:37:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by hippy4christ
Or they never actually had an honest belief in the first place, and they're deceiving themselves when they say that they have an honest belief.
Or maybe you are deceiving yourself when you believe they don't hold an honest belief. Really, the idea that you can see into another person's heart and make a determination of this kind is the height of hubris.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2006 : 15:02:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by hippy4christ
Yahweh's purpose is to create people which love Him. So, in the "Bruce Almighty tidal wave" scenario, what way is there that you know would lead more people to love Yahweh than the way that was presented in the movie?
Indeed, what way would be better in the mind of someone who would give in to terrorism? And the Christian God is a terrorist: "love me or go to hell forever" is His ultimatum. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2006 : 16:30:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Hippy:
R.Wreck:
quote:
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asshole:
quote:
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a stupid, incompetent, or detestable person
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Yahweh is omniscient, so He's not stupid, and 'detestable' is subjective, so we can't objectively discuss it. That leaves incompetent. To say that He is incompetent is to say that He is not fulfilling His purpose in the best way. Yahweh's purpose is to create people which love Him. So, in the "Bruce Almighty tidal wave" scenario, what way is there that you know would lead more people to love Yahweh than the way that was presented in the movie?
How do you know what yahweh's purpose is?
In the Bruce Almighty case, any diety that stands by while some doofus kills thousands of innocents using powers given by the diety is an asshole, just the same as a terrorist flying a plane into a building is an asshole, the way a drunk driver causing a fatal crash is an asshole, or the way some thug who beats an old lady to death for $20 and a CD player is an asshole. Asshole is as asshole does. |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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