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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 01/17/2006 : 09:43:14 [Permalink]
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Most people have learned that demons really don't cause disease, and that it's fine if they pray, but they still need to go to work and do their laundry. All of this was done with science. To say that people will never learn is nonsense. I did, and others have.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2006 : 10:12:33 [Permalink]
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| The word 'nonsense' sounds rude to me here. I don't mean it that way. I mean that I don't see things that way. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2006 : 10:45:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Most people have learned that demons really don't cause disease, and that it's fine if they pray, but they still need to go to work and do their laundry. All of this was done with science. To say that people will never learn is nonsense. I did, and others have.
Lots of people have learned those things not because others told them their beliefs were false or illogical, but because those beliefs failed to meet their own expectations of them, and failed so badly that rationalizations couldn't cope with the scale of failure (kids dying depsite the ministrations of faith healers or exorcists, for example). Those who are looking to God to provide them with everlasting life in Heaven (for just one example) cannot have that belief tested while they're alive. There simply is no possible disconfirming evidence or logic which can be applied to that belief. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2006 : 11:33:52 [Permalink]
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Sure they can. They can find out all the other aspects of gods through the ages are crap. They can find out that those who talk to the dead are frauds or deluded. They can find out there is absolutely no evidence to think there may be any kind of afterlife or gods. They can find out that they do not need such things to live a happy, reasonable life. I found that out partly because there was a lot of information about that.
I know anecdotal evidence isn't conclusive evidence, but I am evidence that you are wrong. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2006 : 12:06:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Sure they can. They can find out all the other aspects of gods through the ages are crap. They can find out that those who talk to the dead are frauds or deluded. They can find out there is absolutely no evidence to think there may be any kind of afterlife or gods. They can find out that they do not need such things to live a happy, reasonable life.
No, none of that actually tests the basic afterlife idea. The last provides a nice alternative for this life, and is perhaps the strongest thing you've got going, but it certainly won't tell a person that more than four billion other people are misguided. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2006 : 12:24:30 [Permalink]
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Science could show them (possibly) that their belief in an afterlife is just another addiction created because they don't think they're worth very much. That's a hypothesis that could be tested and verified just to state a wild example.
Scholarship can show that many people believed dumb things. Or maybe I'm just not understanding what you're saying.
If God has some effect on the world, then that effect can be tested. If it doesn't, then it may as well not exist. If the only effect is random, then how could anyone believe that it was from God?
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2006 : 12:53:06 [Permalink]
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Gorgo: Reason, logic, and evidence can convince some people. Nobody is claiming that.
Only that the huge majority of "faithfull" (regardless of the specific sect) are more or less immune to reason, logic, and evidence.
As a person who has never been convinced of the existance of the supernatural (despite weekly indoctrination as a young child, which my mother didn't force me to go to after I started to object to going) it always confuses me that others cannot see what seems so obvious to me with regard to religious claims.
There are some, like you, who decide that reason, logic, and evidence are a superious worldview... I only wish there were more.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2006 : 13:08:44 [Permalink]
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| There can be many factors involved in turning someone from a believer to a non-believer, but most people don't really believe very much in the supernatural, as I said. I don't think it would take all that much to push most of them over the edge. Once they're gone, many of the rest will follow. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2006 : 17:40:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
I don't think it would take all that much to push most of them over the edge. Once they're gone, many of the rest will follow.
Well then, they should all be well on their way then. Most associate degree programs (and higher) in the US now have a small critical thinking class requirement, there are a couple of TV channels out there that run programming that emphasizes critical thinking (Discovery, Science), there are dozens of books on the subject, there are even a couple that have been best sellers.
There are dozens of citizens groups advocating science. There are national advocacy groups for strong science standards in education...
And so on and so on and so on....
But religion seems to only be growing.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2006 : 18:51:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo:
Sure they can. They can find out all the other aspects of gods through the ages are crap. They can find out that those who talk to the dead are frauds or deluded. They can find out there is absolutely no evidence to think there may be any kind of afterlife or gods. They can find out that they do not need such things to live a happy, reasonable life.
I agree wholeheartedly that they can, but unfortunately the vast majority won't. They don't want that security blanket taken away. |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2006 : 19:00:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude:
quote:
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I don't think it would take all that much to push most of them over the edge. Once they're gone, many of the rest will follow.
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Well then, they should all be well on their way then. Most associate degree programs (and higher) in the US now have a small critical thinking class requirement, there are a couple of TV channels out there that run programming that emphasizes critical thinking (Discovery, Science), there are dozens of books on the subject, there are even a couple that have been best sellers.
There are dozens of citizens groups advocating science. There are national advocacy groups for strong science standards in education...
And so on and so on and so on....
But religion seems to only be growing.
Go into a Barnes & Noble or a Borders and see how many books on critical thinking you can find. Then see how many there are on homeopathy, reflexology, astrology, reiki, and of course religion. It's depressing. |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2006 : 21:11:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Go into a Barnes & Noble
B&N puts creationist books in their science section....
quote:
see how many books on critical thinking you can find. Then see how many there are on homeopathy, reflexology, astrology, reiki, and of course religion. It's depressing.
Because they stock books they can sell. It may be depressing, but thats just the way it is... people buy the crap, so the book stores stock it.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2006 : 22:41:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
[quote]And so on and so on and so on...
...But religion seems to only be growing.
I'd go along with Dude on that. It seems like part of the God Culture (pick your god) is encouraging an animosity towards non-believers (one might even say "otherwise belivers" since they constantly chew on each other's heals, too.) I think the "Stigma" they especially associate with Atheism versus Agnosticism (as if there's a practically significant or meaningful difference) relates to this. Another offshoot of this "group animosity" seems to be that public figures/celebrities (politics, entertainment, sports) either just go with the theistic flow, or stay awful quiet about it in general if they're atheists, otherwise critical thinkers, or members of a non-mainstream religion (generally meaning non-Christian, in this country). For example, I noticed that popular columnist Marilyn Vos Savant was a member of SCICOP, but she offered no other details beyond membership on the SCICOP website (when I checked a while back) and she's always "steered way clear" of any questions remotely approaching religion in her columns and other writings. Can't say I blame her, really, considering our social climate. |
Ron White |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2006 : 02:02:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
I have to return to my original point, ronny. That is we arbitrarily pick things which science is to exclude by defining them in ways that create criteria for science to exclude.
Do you really think it's "arbitrary" what most people exclude from scientific analysis, or do you think people just shy away from testing their religious beliefs for the same reasons you give psychics a free pass? You know, the whole "we shouldn't mess with what works for others," etc.
I give psychics a free pass? Or did you mean the proverbial 'you'?
I'm including the "science can't test the supernatural" in my rant. Sure it can. What has brought me to this position is questioning the existence of things that are outside of the realm of science. There is no supernatural. There are events and they can be looked at using the scientific approach. Science should tell us the best explanation for the existence of god(s) based on the evidence is a man made creation. And science can weigh the morality of something if you enter the parameters by which to measure which is what we do in our weighing of morality. We don't have some inner voice telling us what is moral. We have experiences and beliefs that led us to attach certain values to things. Put those values into the hypothesis and science can address morals just as well as the next brain.
What I mean by arbitrary is that we decide to put these touchy subjects out of the realm of science for social-political reasons rather than for real reasons. If science teachers around the world started teaching that god is man made you can imagine how that would go over. |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 01/18/2006 02:04:51 |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2006 : 02:11:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
I AM THE GOD DAVE AND I DEMAND THAT YOU ALL BOW DOWN BEFORE ME AND... OH, YOU'RE NOT LISTENING ANYMORE.
That's funny.
quote:
So as soon as a scientist define "god" in such a way as to make "god" disprovable, the believers will simply (and often correctly) state that they don't define their god in such a manner, so the argument against god is a strawman.
Which leads naturally to another question, beskeptigal: what is the point of having science disprove god in the first place? If it is to convince believers away from their beliefs, it ain't gonna happen (the old adage that says that you can't use logic and science against a belief which wasn't arrived at through logic and science has been proven time and time again). If the point is to give yourself or other atheists another reason to disbelieve in god, it isn't particularly strong (and mostly preaches to the choir, so to speak).
Point? There is no point to this rant in that respect. Actually, it has nothing to do with convincing anyone of anything except maybe convincing scientists to recognize that placing things that science sort of shatters outside of science rather than letting the shattering commence is the reason. Not that science can't address this or that. Or at least recognizing what science truly doesn't look at like before the BB or outside of the Universe or only certain god concepts but definitely not(as in not excluded from science) claimed supernatural events or the usual god claims like prayer has an effect. |
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