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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 03/01/2006 :  14:11:08   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
From the Insight Mag article:

quote:
On Sept. 6, 2001, the Thursday before the tragedy, 2,075 put options were made on United Airlines and on Sept. 10, the day before the attacks, 2,282 put options were recorded for American Airlines. Given the prices at the time, this would have yielded speculators between $2 million and $4 million in profit #8212; hardly what any analyst would call a killing in the options markets. Based on historical data for both airlines, the put options just prior to Sept. 11 neither were dramatic nor unprecedented.

For example, there were repeated spikes in put options on American Airlines during the year before Sept. 11, including June 19 with 2,951 puts, June 15 at 1,144 puts, April 16 at 1,019 and Jan. 8 at 1,315 puts. United Airlines puts were a little more during the prior year, including Aug. 8 at 1,678 puts, July 20 with 2,995, April 6 at 8,212 and March 13 at 8,072. Since such relatively small spikes in options occur frequently and in a random pattern, why would respected financial analysts and government investigators cry foul?


Info from a reasonably credible source, which pretty much drops the hammer on any put option conspiracy.

It also eliminates all those other "questions" Rumpl has concerning the SEC and releasing names (I'd still like to know why anyone would think that names implicated in a criminal investigation would be "released" anyway, or why names -as these apparently are- that are not implicated in wrongdoing would be "released")

I'd still like to see the five year trends pre and post 9/11 on put options on the airline stocks, which should have been the obvious no-brainer info to get to conclusively prove that those two spikes were out of the ordinary. Any conclusion drawn based on the trading activity from those two days alone is fairly useless, unless you are just looking for some cherrypicked detail to fit your pre-formed assumtions.

Ok, next question:

You are aware that the demolition of a building requires significant expertise, planning, and what would be obvious alteration to the building interior? (pesky things like specialty wires(you can't use copper wires or radio det because of chance of interference from the insane ammount if radio packet traffic that would have been going on in WTC on a normal day), holes drilled, demolitions placed, people doing all this shit, etc).

Rumpl, you mentioned something about a source that says 10 people could plan and execute the demolition of the WTC buildings in "4 trips". Please share this reference with us.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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Ghost_Skeptic
SFN Regular

Canada
510 Posts

Posted - 03/02/2006 :  01:04:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ghost_Skeptic a Private Message
Good one Dude - about time somebody checked to see if the alleged put trading "anomalies" were significant relative to the normal noise.

furhsur - it is obvious these conspiracy clowns have never used an acetylene torch to bend steel.

Halfmooner - You have made the best point so far - how these convoluted conspiracy theories draw attention away from the real issues. Maybe they were started by the CIA/Whitehouse to muddy the waters or am I being paranoid?

"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. / You can send a kid to college but you can't make him think." - B.B. King

History is made by stupid people - The Arrogant Worms

"The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism." - William Osler

"Religion is the natural home of the psychopath" - Pat Condell

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter" - Thomas Jefferson
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 03/02/2006 :  01:40:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
Ghost wrote:
quote:
Halfmooner - You have made the best point so far - how these convoluted conspiracy theories draw attention away from the real issues. Maybe they were started by the CIA/Whitehouse to muddy the waters or am I being paranoid?
The theories were started by the Administration specifically to make you paranoid.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 03/03/2006 :  10:34:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
Well, looks like I won't be getting any answers from Rumpl.

Not that I really expected any.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 03/03/2006 :  11:22:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
Dude mentioned:
quote:
Well, looks like I won't be getting any answers from Rumpl.

Not that I really expected any.

No kidding.

He's all, "Here's these links that prove this massive weird conspiracy."

And we're all, "Where's your evidence?"

And he's all, "I can see you guys will accept everything Bush dishes out!"

And we're all, "But just show us some evidence."

And he's all, "Well, this grieving woman said so and so!"

And we're all, "But she had no evidence!"

And he's all, "Hey, I'm up to my ass in sawdust here."


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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snake river rufus
New Member

USA
2 Posts

Posted - 03/06/2006 :  18:41:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send snake river rufus a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Rumpl4skn

Btw, just quickly, as a point of reference here: what's the overall take on the JFK assassination. Just by show of hands...

Oswald acted alone.......... Oswald was a patsy for the CIA.........The Cubans did it......... The CIA did it, and GHW Bush was a key player?

Just curious. Trying to find out what makes the Skeptic Friends tick.


Hi guys, newbe poster here.
I am firmly in the lone nutter camp. LHO acted alone. Unless you can come up with evidence to the contrary?
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 03/06/2006 :  18:44:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message
Welcome snake river rufus!

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 03/06/2006 :  18:50:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
Well, just to share:

I sent an email inquiry to a very large demolitions firm asking their opinion on accomplishing the demolition of the WTC towers unnoticed. The person who responded requested that I not use their name and not directly quote them on any website. (honestly, I was suprised to get a resonse at all. I'm sure they get flooded with the 9/11 conspiracy nuts.)

The person who resonded to my inquiry basically said that anyone who believed such a demolition could be carried out covertly was needed to watch some of the documentaries about demolitions that have been made over the last 50 years. There are dozens of them and they have aired on Discovery, History, A&E, PBS, Learning, and a couple of other channels.

WTC towers would have required, literally, tons of explosives and significant alteration to the interior in order to place the demo, and another ton or two of wiring.

In short, no way could it have been done without somebody noticing.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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ooh_child
New Member

USA
30 Posts

Posted - 04/20/2006 :  14:58:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send ooh_child a Private Message
Hi folks! I just wanted to let you know about a new addition to FSTDT in case you haven't seen it yet:

http://www.fstdt.com/conspiracy/

Enjoy!



Regards,

MHB
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verlch
SFN Regular

781 Posts

Posted - 05/06/2006 :  00:32:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send verlch an AOL message Send verlch a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dude

Well, just to share:

I sent an email inquiry to a very large demolitions firm asking their opinion on accomplishing the demolition of the WTC towers unnoticed. The person who responded requested that I not use their name and not directly quote them on any website. (honestly, I was suprised to get a resonse at all. I'm sure they get flooded with the 9/11 conspiracy nuts.)

The person who resonded to my inquiry basically said that anyone who believed such a demolition could be carried out covertly was needed to watch some of the documentaries about demolitions that have been made over the last 50 years. There are dozens of them and they have aired on Discovery, History, A&E, PBS, Learning, and a couple of other channels.

WTC towers would have required, literally, tons of explosives and significant alteration to the interior in order to place the demo, and another ton or two of wiring.

In short, no way could it have been done without somebody noticing.






I saw Larry Silverstein on PBS say we "pulled" WTC building no. 7. He might die in a car wreck like Gen Macarthur did. Out of no where, JFK style. "Pulled" is a term for blowing up a building. Yeah, two days after WTC 1 and WTC 2 collapse? It takes weeks to get that set up, I think he was playing CYA in case the leftest wanted to kill him because he knew too much, instead he leaked that they "pulled" the building WTC 7.

Another thing I heard, was that it takes a rock 8.9 seconds to reach the ground from the top of WTC 1. It took the buildings 8.9 seconds to hit the ground. The only way it could do that, is if the supports were blown away. It would have taken alot longer for it too collapse if each floor had fallen one on the other.

Giuliani sent the debris to be recycled over seas. Why do that? Unless you are hiding something. We can't examine the evidence?

On the morning of Sept 11th it just so happens that the whole system is shut down for a drill of terrorists hijacking planes. So nobody reacted when there were reports of hijacked planes. The Pennsylvania plane got shot down because generals defied orders.

Camera's surrounding the Pentagon at 5 locations were taken in minutes by the intelligence agencies. We are only shown one, with an immensely blurred image, can't tell what it is.

Never ending war in Iraq. High gas prices, etc.

What came first the chicken or the egg?

How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?

There are no atheists in foxholes

Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4

II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!

Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?

Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.

We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.

"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9666 Posts

Posted - 05/06/2006 :  04:19:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
Hello Verlch! Long time no see...

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9666 Posts

Posted - 05/06/2006 :  04:47:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by verlch
[Another thing I heard, was that it takes a rock 8.9 seconds to reach the ground from the top of WTC 1. It took the buildings 8.9 seconds to hit the ground. The only way it could do that, is if the supports were blown away. It would have taken alot longer for it too collapse if each floor had fallen one on the other.

You either heard wrong, or the one you heard it from was wrong or lying.

If it takes 8.9 seconds for a rock to hit the ground, then the rock was dropped from a height of 0.8 kilometer. (Or 0.5 mile for you who don't know International Standard)

This is high-school physics.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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ktesibios
SFN Regular

USA
505 Posts

Posted - 05/06/2006 :  13:15:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send ktesibios a Private Message
verlch, first off General MacArthur didn't die in a car crash. He died at Walter Reed Medical Center following surgery, at the age of 84. While I can't find anything at the moment (memo to self: get a copy of William Manchester's MacArthur biography) about just why he was in the hospital that time, he's known to have had prostate surgery a few years before. There's an entry in Simpson's Familiar Quotations that seems relevant:

quote:
AUTHOR: Gen Douglas MacArthur, US Army
QUOTATION: I've looked that old scoundrel death in the eye many times but this time I think he has me on the ropes.
ATTRIBUTION: On entering Walter Reed Army Medical Center for surgery that ended in his death, ib


http://www.bartleby.com/63/84/1284.html

You're probably thinking of General Patton, who died of injuries received in a car crash in 1946. This provides a handy baseline for how confused you are and how little effort you put into checking what you "heard".

Second, as to Larry Silverstein "admitting" that they "pulled" WTC7, "pulled" isn't a slang term for using explosives in a demolition; the common term for that is "shoot". There's also no reason to assume that someone whose career is in real estate would naturally use a slang term belonging to a different and rather obscure profession, especially when that word isn't what the conspiracy industry claims..

An interesting discussion of this question can be found here:

http://www.911myths.com/html/wtc7_pulled.html

The "free-fall" thing is also an easily-debunked fallacy. Videos of the collapses of the WTC towers show debris ejected from the falling buildings- which would unquestionably be in free fall- falling faster than the main bulk of the falling structure. It's also extremely difficult to determine how long it took the towers to collapse. In videos, the quantities of dust obscure enough to make it impossible to determine exactly when a given portion of the structure came to rest; one has also to deal with questions of definitions- exactly which part of the building do you use as the reference for falling time and how do you determine when it has got there, using the available evidence? Even the seismic records of the collapses doesn't provide a definitive answer.

The uncertainties involved provide an awful lot of wiggle room for whatever hypothesis you favor to fit into; they also show that the conspiracist claims are based on a thoroughly false degree of precision.

Anyway, since the video evidence does demonstrate that the debris which was definititely in free fall got ahead of the main bulk of the collapses, we can safely conclude that the buildings' structure did offer some resistance to the falling upper floors. The question then becomes exactly how much resistance (and consequent deviation of the rate of fall from the acceleration of gravity) should we expect to see.

That means that if the conspiracy-mongers want to make some sort of point about collapse times, they have to do a detailed analysis of what should happen when the top ten or twenty floors of a WTC tower unship and fall on the floors below. None have done this; instead they make oversimplified claims which are really nothing more than handwaving.

This page:

http://www.911myths.com/html/freefall.html

contains some discussion of the "free-fall" question which is worth reading. I also recommend going over to the BAUT Forum's conspiracy theories page. If you take the time to wade through the various 9/11 threads there you'll find a lot of illuminating commentary from JayUtah about how building demolitions are done, the principles and preparations involved and the many, many things that the conspiracy-theory industry has gotten utterly wrong.

Finally, from the same site, there's

"The Republican agenda is to turn the United States into a third-world shithole." -P.Z.Myers
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verlch
SFN Regular

781 Posts

Posted - 05/06/2006 :  14:26:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send verlch an AOL message Send verlch a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

Hello Verlch! Long time no see...



How are you?

What else happened that was odd.

Oh yeah, the Patriot Bill was in congress the month before. Just waiting to go through. When 9/11 happened they shot it right through congress.

Then we heard the "War on Terror" speech for months and months.

Fireman said the fire was almost out, they had it under control, yet somehow the steel still melted. Other buildings have burned for days, and been fine. It would take alot hotter of a fire than that, to topple the buildings.

Many of the so called Hijackers turned up in other countries, alive. Again, story doesn't jive. These men are supposedly boarding the planes. All 20 of them, yet they turned up alive. That alone should be suspect.

They needed an excuse to go to war... 9/11 they got it. Either another nation did an inside job on us, or the government knew and did nother, or they orchestrated it.

Or somebody that hates America did it.

I think the American Elite did it, or aided the plan, due to the fact, how else would NORAD be shut down? Doing mock drills of Hijacked planes, the exact hour, minute, that all this took place?

We got our Pearl Harbor event whether we liked it or not.

Frankly I don't trust any of the Yes men in office. None of them.


What came first the chicken or the egg?

How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?

There are no atheists in foxholes

Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4

II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!

Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?

Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.

We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.

"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 05/06/2006 :  14:44:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message
quote:
Frankly I don't trust any of the Yes men in office. None of them.


At last, something everyone could agree on.

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
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