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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 03/30/2006 :  13:58:13  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message
link

Really, Im truly shocked.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini

Edited by - BigPapaSmurf on 03/31/2006 10:35:54

beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 03/30/2006 :  15:23:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
Now there are 3 studies. The more the merrier. It's about time these folks quit making false claims to people that God answers prayers.
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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 03/30/2006 :  15:24:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message
It doesn't matter. They will say that god didn't want to be discovered this way, so he/she/it did not participate in these tests. There is no winning of this argument, as with most arguments with the religous about god.

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26009 Posts

Posted - 03/30/2006 :  22:18:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by pleco

It doesn't matter. They will say that god didn't want to be discovered this way, so he/she/it did not participate in these tests. There is no winning of this argument, as with most arguments with the religous about god.
Except that such an argument means that God can change the results of scientific tests on a whim, which invalidates all of scientific testing, which means that a positive result would be equally as meaningless for the religious-minded. In other words, if they make that argument, then they undermine the very reason to test prayer's effects scientifically in the first place. Or the reason to do any science at all, for that matter.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Ghost_Skeptic
SFN Regular

Canada
510 Posts

Posted - 03/30/2006 :  23:23:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ghost_Skeptic a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
In other words, if they make that argument, then they undermine the very reason to test prayer's effects scientifically in the first place. Or the reason to do any science at all, for that matter.



Which would suit them just fine since science has been embarrisng religion since Erastothenes determined the diameter of the earth.

"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. / You can send a kid to college but you can't make him think." - B.B. King

History is made by stupid people - The Arrogant Worms

"The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism." - William Osler

"Religion is the natural home of the psychopath" - Pat Condell

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter" - Thomas Jefferson
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 03/31/2006 :  02:01:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
How many of these imbecilic 'studies' have there been, anyway? The official ones that is, not the Jerry Falwell kind. Seems like I've been hearing about one every couple of years or so for 20 years.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 03/31/2006 :  02:05:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by filthy

How many of these imbecilic 'studies' have there been, anyway? The official ones that is, not the Jerry Falwell kind. Seems like I've been hearing about one every couple of years or so for 20 years.





So far, I've only seen two others. Perhaps there are more but there aren't too many.

As to the results being discounted, that may be true for the die hards but I would bet more than a few believers might at least notice something that should show up isn't there.
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moakley
SFN Regular

USA
1886 Posts

Posted - 03/31/2006 :  05:39:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send moakley a Private Message
quote:
"One caveat is that with so many individuals receiving prayer from friends and family, as well as personal prayer, it may be impossible to disentangle the effects of study prayer from background prayer," Manoj Jain of Baptist Memorial Hospital, Memphis, Tennessee, another author of the report.

Yep, next to impossible.

Whatever a man prays for, he prays for a miracle. Every prayer reduces itself to this: "Great God, grant that twice two be not four." ~Ivan Turgenev

Prayer is a solicitation to get an omniscient being to changes its mind or to do what it was going to do. ~Dan Barker

Life is good

Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous
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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 03/31/2006 :  05:46:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message
What the hell is "background prayer"?

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 03/31/2006 :  05:48:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message
Dave said:

quote:
Except that such an argument means that God can change the results of scientific tests on a whim, which invalidates all of scientific testing, which means that a positive result would be equally as meaningless for the religious-minded. In other words, if they make that argument, then they undermine the very reason to test prayer's effects scientifically in the first place. Or the reason to do any science at all, for that matter.


Deep down I don't think they worry about seeing any positive results. Much like the fact that even though their god supposedly judges everyone for all eternity, they still feel the need to punish criminals here on earth. And even though heaven is supposed to be the best place ever, the religous still wear seat belts and get sad when loved ones die.

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
Edited by - pleco on 03/31/2006 05:51:15
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 03/31/2006 :  06:17:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
PRAY, v. To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy. -- Ambrose Bierce




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 03/31/2006 :  11:52:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
Just in from FOX News: They couldn't possibly "measure faith". Huh? I thought they were measuring the effect of prayer on recovery after heart surgery. And there were too many variables, so without any discussion of how the researchers did or didn't control for variables (like having two randomized groups), the two people unrelated to the study or scientific research FOX chose to interview both dismissed the results as having been obtained in a poorly designed study.

Fair and balanced: Of course, they interviewed a religious doctor and a catholic priest. Both agreed the study was a waste of money and that faith could not be measured. But hold on to your seats, here's where they differed. The priest said there was no way for the researchers to know if the people praying weren't really secretly praying to Satan or making some other mockery of prayer. And the religious doctor said the results didn't matter because he believes praying with his patients "improves doctor-patient communication". Yep, that's balanced and clearly represented the study.
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 04/01/2006 :  12:54:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by pleco

It doesn't matter. They will say that god didn't want to be discovered this way, so he/she/it did not participate in these tests. There is no winning of this argument, as with most arguments with the religous about god.



I don't think studies like this are to convince the die-hard fundamentalists. Fundamentalists make it pretty clear that no study could ever convince them of something they don't already believe in. So in that sense, yes, it doesn't matter.

But instead, these can be used to target fence sitters or very open minded skeptics. People who think it's quite possible. And hey, if you never did this study, you could never be sure. So in that sense, it does matter.

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 04/01/2006 :  13:22:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
I agree, Ricky. At some point, people with common sense begin to notice Zeus isn't throwing lightning bolts and the Bible is as much a book of myths as the rest.
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Compassion
New Member

8 Posts

Posted - 05/24/2006 :  23:06:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Compassion a Private Message
If the Bible is a book of myths, then evolution is the thought of a blind.

The Bible is not a myth - rather ALL historical records and scientific records show that the Bible is God-breathed and is made of facts and teachings. Evolution is made up for those who do not want to believe that someone is infinitely better than them. That is called ignorance and pride.

If you wonder why I believe in God, I can simply answer that God has answered ALL my prayers and healed people in know in my church, as well as myself and my friends. I know people that are great in faith and have been cured from cancer. God is almighty and answers at ALL TIMES.

Are YOU going to heaven? Read the Bible, God's Word, to find out the truth. God is filled with compassion for you, His creation, and will reach out to bring you salvation. He sent his son, Christ Jesus, as a substitute for your sins. Accept Christ into your heart once and for all to be saved. God's deliverance from death for you is here!
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 05/25/2006 :  00:08:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message
quote:
If the Bible is a book of myths, then evolution is the thought of a blind.
Er... are you trying to say that blind people have poorer thoughts than people who can see?

If God heals all your prayers but putters out when scientists are actually paying attention, does that mean you're special in some way? I guess God didn't give a crap about all the people who die of cancer and pray their asses off. Not to mention all the other diseases and natural disasters. Man, you and your friends must be, like, God's favorites or something. Can I be your friend? 'Cause I'd really love to start smoking again, and if he can cure cancer... I mean, score!

Historical records... exactly what historical records prove the Bible true? Because its pretty commonly known among educated people now that the vast majority of Bible stories are not supported by historical evidence. Even most Christian clergy admit that.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

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