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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
 Posted - 04/16/2006 : 16:51:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
quote:
Gorgo:
I agree that this is not a perfect thing to do. Most things aren't, however.
It's far from perfect. It's a dumb thing to do. It's sophomoric and counter productive…
Most of all, contrary to Gorgo's judgement earlier in the thread, it's not polite.
It's actually, as Gorgo has pointed out, an example of using one's "enemies" tactics against them: in this case, trying to set children against their parents. It's not polite when the faithful do it, and it's not polite when the atheists do it, either.
And while "hate" may not be the right word, the "war on Easter" crowd certainly isn't trying to foster a polite environment of rational discussion in which it'd be possible to work towards a mutual understanding. Not when they phrase the act of going into a church as "entering enemy territory."
Their actions are designed to inflame and enrage. They lie to people about their reasons for being in a church. And they don't seem to give a rat's ass about actually "converting" anyone (child or adult), because if they get in, plant their flyers, and get out, they proudly call it "mission accomplished," so the actual outcome is irrelevant to them. Thus, they appear to be doing it for no other reason than it gives 'em the jollies - creating more little atheists is purely incidental.
If you want to try to rationalize all that crap away, Gorgo, and feed yourself a line about them doing something for the greater good, that's your choice. But don't expect people here to not call you on your bullshit once you choose to express it.
Hey, I had a Mormon missionary stop by my backyard earlier today while I was out playing with the kids. Rather than talk to any of them, he looked at me, and asked if he could give me some reading material for when I had some spare time. I could see what he wanted to give me, so I just said "no, thanks." He replied, "okay, sir, thank you for your time," and he walked away. Now that was polite. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2006 : 17:21:29 [Permalink]
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No. Asshole is something that has to do with your anger, and has nothing to do with anything else.
Sometimes grown-ups do trick children. That is a true statement. Sometimes grown-ups make up scary stories. Hell is a made-up scary story.
The point is not the flyers, but the movie. Some of which is sophomoric. Some of which is very good.
This is not something that I will do, but you who call people assholes and morons, are the angry atheists, not a bunch of sophomoric kids who are trying to have some fun and teach some people some things and maybe do things a little differently than I would. I'd rather have them do that than put Jack Chick flyers in restrooms and vote for faith-based bullshit. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
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Robert Hunter
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2006 : 17:41:38 [Permalink]
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I have mixed feelings here. On the one hand, why adopt the negative principles of religious proselytizing. On the other hand, the Evangelicals are out there recruiting followers and they have no qualms about tactics. Perhaps if it merely makes proselytizers aware of how other parents might view such things as them giving out Christmas candy to kids with that xerox of the false story about candy canes originating from a candy maker who put the red stripe on it to signify Christ's blood, the cane is a shepard's staff etc., etc. My kid got those on more than one occasion from kids in his class at school. And if anyone is interested, the story originated from a very recent children's book. Christians convinced themselves it was a real story. I guess the difference is both stories are false but one handout accuses the parent of lying to the child and the other leaves that part out.
Snopes on the Candy Cane Jesus story
Snopes says the story led to the book, so I may be wrong about the origin but it still isn't a true story. |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 04/16/2006 17:45:03 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2006 : 17:45:22 [Permalink]
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Given the choice between a poorly worded flyer and abusing children by telling them stories about Hell, I'll take the poorly worded flyer.
Polite? Since when did you give a royal rat's ass about being polite, Dave? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2006 : 17:52:43 [Permalink]
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Gorgo wrote: quote:
This is not something that I will do, but you who call people assholes and morons, are the angry atheists, not a bunch of sophomoric kids who are trying to have some fun and teach some people some things and maybe do things a little differently than I would.
Well I started using the term "angry atheists" and I and my atheist friends use that term to refer to atheists who are anti-religious, not just intellectually, but socially and sometimes politically. Taslima Nasrin once said in an interview that there shouldn't be churches. A few weeks ago, a classmate of mine mentioned how upset she was that there was a prayer group at our private academy, saying, "They don't allow prayer in schools, so why here?" She didn't even understand that public schools, and certainly private colleges are allowed and do have prayer clubs, as long as they don't happen during school time under the direction of school authorities.
You say that we here, who think these stunts are moronic and impolite, are the real "angry atheists". OK, what are we angry at? Well, we're angry at a very specific act done by a very specific group of people, and we've said exactly why. Now the angry atheists that I've referred to, what are they angry at? A long and broad history of acts, many of which are unrelated to theology, as well as a long an broad history of theological and philosophical ideas, as well as current political actions taken by a minority percentage of Americans who adhere to a fairly young version of the Christian religion. And it's actually much more complicated than that. I mean, can you grasp what I'm saying here? Attacking religion as a whole in such a manner is so pointless, and potentially detrimental to the cause of freedom, tolerance, reason, and equality, especially when it adopt the rhetoric and some of the tactics of the most bigoted among its opposition.
quote:
I'd rather have them do that than put Jack Chick flyers in restrooms and vote for faith-based bullshit.
Yeah, and I'd rather eat cold spam than boiled beetles, but both taste like shit. What's your point? Fundies are way worse, so what these guys are doing is OK? |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2006 : 18:01:19 [Permalink]
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Yes. What these guys are doing is imperfect, and I would do it differently. That is different that "moron" and "asshole."
The fact that you want me to hate "fundies" and not anyone else is your problem. In fact, I don't separate religious insanities from non-religious insanities. They're all insanities. Mine included. I try not to hate anyone. I try to rid myself of my insanities, and help others be rid of theirs. Life is much healthier that way. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2006 : 18:38:30 [Permalink]
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Holy shit. I was kidding, people. I just heard a few "holiday" comments and recalled how, in the context of a certain December holiday season, such things led the reacto-fundie-neo-cons to thinl that the whole world was going hell. Or rather, they figured they could make a few bucks if they shelled that shit out to their less-than-free-thinking sheep-like audience.
But I'm glad there's discussion anyhow... |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2006 : 18:51:09 [Permalink]
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Let me back off from something here, after looking at the web site a little more. My first response was to the idea that we're not supposed to say there is something wrong with believing in supersition. There is something very wrong with it. It's not the end of the world, but it is dangerous.
I agree that leaving things for kids without their parents knowledge is unwise. People are scared to death of terrorism and abductions and things. I also agree that the flyers are poorly worded.
When I read this, I saw that there was a contest. If you leave a DVD of the movie, you get something free. (that's what the mission thing is about) I think the prize was the next movie, and a copy of the first movie. I glossed over the part about the flyers. When someone disagreed with what the flyer said, I have to say I didn't read it the way they did, but I can understand how some would not like that, and again, leaving things for kids in a place where you're not invited is not real wise.
In fact, I probably wouldn't leave the DVD's in churches. I'd say, if you agree with the movie, make sure your library has a copy, or mail it to churches, or pass it out in front of a church. It's a given that I am welcome in most churches, but not for the purpose of leaving business cards or atheist flyers.
Fair enough? I agree that it is sophomoric and unwise. I don't agree that people who disagree with me are assholes and morons. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2006 : 19:32:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Polite? Since when did you give a royal rat's ass about being polite, Dave?
This has nothing to do with me, but instead with your judgement of the "War on Easter" folks as doing things "politely." If you think they're polite - aside from being sophmoric and unwise - then I think you're dreaming. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2006 : 21:24:42 [Permalink]
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Gorgo wrote: quote:
The fact that you want me to hate "fundies" and not anyone else is your problem.
I didn't encourage you to hate anyone. I did say that fundies need to be criticized fiercly in the public arena because they are politically active in a way that could limit the freedoms of others.
quote:
I don't agree that people who disagree with me are assholes and morons.
I don't recall anyone here saying they were assholes or morons because they disagreed with us. In fact, I praised Martin Luther King and others while in the same paragraph admitted I think he's wrong about some of his literal beliefs. So you are twisting what I and others here have said.
You are also playing a silly semantics game. "Sophmoric" and "poorly worded" are OK, but "moron" crosses the line, huh? Targeting kids is "unwise", but saying they are "assholes" for doing so also crosses the line? |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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dglas
Skeptic Friend
Canada
397 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2006 : 23:24:01 [Permalink]
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Hmmm.
So the basic points of contention here are:
(1) The targeting of children with materials intended to influence their thinking - most especially if it contradicts the will of their parents; and
(2) The degree of literalism (for want of a better term) of the religious person is the measure of whether public (specifically skeptical) criticism is warranted against their viewpoint.
Is this somewhere near correct? |
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- dglas (In the hell of 1000 unresolved subplots...)
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The Presupposition of Intrinsic Evil
+ A Self-Justificatory Framework
= The "Heart of Darkness"
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2006 : 00:35:45 [Permalink]
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| I think integrity is part of it. Dave says that some of these people are lying their way into churches and being impolite in their actions. If that's the case, then that's not something that I would encourage. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2006 : 00:55:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
You are also playing a silly semantics game. "Sophmoric" and "poorly worded" are OK, but "moron" crosses the line, huh? Targeting kids is "unwise", but saying they are "assholes" for doing so also crosses the line?
I think that "moron" and "asshole" or are just insults that don't help anyone. It's not constructive at all. If the other adjectives are against the person and not their actions, then those are probably not very constructive either. I'm not saying I never cross that line myself. I don't think attempting to pick the proper word to use is silly. It's part of trying to communicate. I don't always do that well. That's one of the reasons I'm here. To try to learn how to do that. Sometimes I don't do that well, but sometimes that's probably impossible due to the format.
You would criticize atheists for calling someone an asshole or a moron for believing in god. So would I. I don't see the difference. They are people who may be misguided or deluded, but trying to do what they can do to make the world a better place. You'd forgive MLK his faults and put him up on a pedestal, but not fellow atheists?
People who are close to me believe in god and I do think it's important when dealing with other people to be polite and respectful if you want to get that back. I am close to wanting to say that this type of guerilla theater has a place, but like I said, it's not something that I would do, and not something that I would encourage.
I'm sorry, Dave, that I didn't devote much time to our discussion about "judgment" and other words. Maybe some other day, but suffice it to say that you are right, we all make judgments. I think I said that before, but will say it again as you seem to have that stuck in your mind. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2006 : 03:07:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by dglas
Hmmm.
So the basic points of contention here are:
(1) The targeting of children with materials intended to influence their thinking - most especially if it contradicts the will of their parents; and
(2) The degree of literalism (for want of a better term) of the religious person is the measure of whether public (specifically skeptical) criticism is warranted against their viewpoint.
Is this somewhere near correct?
Welcome to SFN, dglas. I'd say that at present, any original points of contention have been lost. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2006 : 04:25:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
quote:
Originally posted by dglas
Hmmm.
So the basic points of contention here are:
(1) The targeting of children with materials intended to influence their thinking - most especially if it contradicts the will of their parents; and
(2) The degree of literalism (for want of a better term) of the religious person is the measure of whether public (specifically skeptical) criticism is warranted against their viewpoint.
Is this somewhere near correct?
Welcome to SFN, dglas. I'd say that at present, any original points of contention have been lost.
Yeah, looks that way.
I must admit that I can get a bit fulsome where my family is concerned. But doesn't everyone?
By my lights, these 'atheists' are little different from the Bible-floggers they are criticizing, and I despise religious evangelism in any of it's forms.
Hey, apart from Bush shunting gay families to the back of the Egg Roll line, who's fighting a war on Easter?
Welcome to SFN, dglas
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
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Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
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