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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
 Posted - 05/17/2006 : 12:43:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
The insanity that has afflicted so many people here in my country, that allows them to remain pissed off at Clinton for such a minor thing, and sit back and make up excuses for W and rationalize away anything he does.
Maybe a better word would be surreal.
Intentionally depriving a US citizen of their rights is a small thing?
quote:
Robb-
You want an example of W directly breaking a very clear law?
He failed to inform congress, in the manner set out explicity in the law, which he and his people were more than aware of, of his warrantless wiretapping program and the newly revealed NSA program being carried out with the help of some of the major telecom companies.
He deliberately circumvented this law because he knew that there would be opposition on the appropriate comittee.
One clear law, deliberately broken, by G.W. Bush. One crime that, imo, is far more serious than any criminal act ever done by Clinton.
Yet I bet you will make up some excuse to forgive Bush this one also. Cite the lone ultra-noeconservative legal scholar who claims it isn't a criminal act and rationalize away a serious crime by your president.
I am against alot of things Bush has done. He is no conservative. This issue is still debatable whether he had precedent or not. Past presidents have done the same thing. Where I think Bush is in trouble is that he did not inform congress.
quote:
quote:
It seems he authorized sleep deprevation, the use of dogs, sensory overload or deprevation. I do not think tis amounts to torture.
See what I mean? You will forgive this guy anything. You, and thoe like you, have invested yourselves into this president. You have done it so fully that if you admit he is a slimebag criminal it ammounts to YOU having to admit that your judgement is seriously flawed. Something that no person does easily.
I have said befor that I do not agree with alot of what Bush has done. If he is going to be impeached for anything, he should be impeached for not protecting our border. Anybody can come across with anythng and that is real scary and irresponsible on his part.
quote:
Sleep deprivation, Robb, is hardcore torture. Try to stay awake for 48 hours, no stimulants allowed. At the 20-26hour mark when you decide trying to stay awake for 48 hours is a stupid idea and head for you bed, imagine what it would be like being forced to remain awake at that point.
Been there, our military goes through this from time to time and nothing is said. These potential terrorist have to stay up and you get offended?
quote:
I do not hold Bush to a higher standard, I do require evidence that he has committed a crime to impeach him.
quote:
No ammount of evidence, short of video of him strangling small children, will be enough to convince you. You DO hold Bush to a different standard, because you voted for him, and you have to first be capable of admitting that you made a mistake before you will admit that Bush need to be impeached for his numerous crimes.
There is ample evidence of his violation (crime) of the law that requires him to notify congress of his intel gathering activities. Ample evidence that he did it on purpose, in order to evade any and all oversight of his actions.
There is ample evidence that he, by executive order, denied hundreds of people the right to due process.
There is ample evidence that he has authorized the use of torture on these same people whom he is denying due process.
You just refuse to see it Robb.
Any thin excuse to impeach Clinton is ok, but no ammount of crime is enough to impeach Bush, apparently.
Where is this ample evidence evidence? Look, I think that he could be impeached for not protecting our borders, it is clear that he has not done this and maybe for the wiretapping. I would not vote for him if he could run again. You do alot of stereotyping Dude, the world is not as black and white as you would like it to be. I want evidence to impeach a president, we had it with Clinton and we may have it with Bush on the wiretapping. Why don't we leave it up to the courts to decide.
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2006 : 14:02:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
quote:
The insanity that has afflicted so many people here in my country, that allows them to remain pissed off at Clinton for such a minor thing, and sit back and make up excuses for W and rationalize away anything he does.
Maybe a better word would be surreal.
Intentionally depriving a US citizen of their rights is a small thing?
What rights are you talking about. The reference was to a BJ with Monica; that makes him a pretty piss poor husband but how does that deprive any american of their rights?
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2006 : 14:43:12 [Permalink]
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I detest all the false Republican indignation concerning Clinton's impeachment. They all act so pious and pretend it's a matter of principle. They solemnly nod their heads and agree that a President must be held to the highest standard of law possible. Please.
If Clinton had been caught jay-walking they would have tried to kick him out of office. It was a witch hunt over a matter that should never have become public anyway. He was less than forthcoming about his private sexual life in a court of law. So what? He was not found guilty of perjury or obstruction of justice as the Senate trial acquitted him. To continue to perpetuate the delusion that Clinton committed a heinous crime is ridiculous propaganda that places party politics over the facts and substance of what actually transpired.
But hey, the Republicans' grand power play worked. They sure conned a whole lot of suckers into believing they really were moved to act only for the good of the nation. Look what they've done to this country now.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 05/17/2006 14:45:35 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2006 : 17:18:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Been there, our military goes through this from time to time and nothing is said. These potential terrorist have to stay up and you get offended?
The US military, when we carry out initial action/response drills can indeed remain awake for 48-72 hours.
Also, we are allowed the near unlimited use of whatever legal stimulant we care to use, after 24 hours we get people into a cycle of short powernaps every 2-4 hours (to let the brain enter into a bit of REM and help avoid the inevitable hallicinations), and so on. The people undergoing this training also understand that initial response is critical, and are doing this willingly.
You can't even try to compare intentional sleep deprivation with how it occurs in our military training.
Yet again you speak from your ignorance in order to defend and rationalize the actions of your president.
Force a person to stay awake for 48+ hours, with no stimulants and no chance at brief restorative naps, and you are torturing them worse than if you had just hooked up electrodes to their genitals and zapped them.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2006 : 17:25:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Intentionally depriving a US citizen of their rights is a small thing?
No, Robb, it isn't.
Your tortured resoning to get to the conclusion that Clinton deprived anyone of their rights is pathetic.
Bush is out there doing it on a grand scale. Yet the only thing you are pissed off at Bush about are the things your masters are telling you to be pissed at him about: Budget, immigration, and big government spending.
You won't even agree that he broke the laws on informing congress about his illegal survailance programs.
Bush has violated the rights of thousands (if not millions now, with the latest thing with the NSA) of US citizens. Yet here you are, more worried about smearing Clinton than demanding accountability and justice from the current president.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2006 : 17:54:37 [Permalink]
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Dude wrote to Robb: quote:
You won't even agree that he broke the laws on informing congress about his illegal survailance programs.
But before that, Robb wrote: quote:
Where I think Bush is in trouble is that he did not inform congress.
and quote:
Look, I think that he could be impeached for not protecting our borders, it is clear that he has not done this and maybe for the wiretapping.
(emphasis mine.)
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 05/23/2006 17:54:52 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2006 : 18:19:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
Dude wrote to Robb: quote:
You won't even agree that he broke the laws on informing congress about his illegal survailance programs.
But before that, Robb wrote: quote:
Where I think Bush is in trouble is that he did not inform congress.
and quote:
Look, I think that he could be impeached for not protecting our borders, it is clear that he has not done this and maybe for the wiretapping.
(emphasis mine.)
Yes, Robb has said he thinks Bush is "in trouble," and guilty of vague things like not protecting our borders, but he refuses to use the phrase "Bush broke the law," which I believe is Dude's point. So even though Clinton wasn't convicted, Robb has no problem referring to him as a criminal, but he refuses to use the same language in regards to a Rupublican president. That's the distinction.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Grumpy_Bear
New Member
USA
5 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2006 : 19:06:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Tim
Posted by marfknox quote:
Where is the fury from the American people over this?
The fury is there. It's simmering in a recliner with a beer in one hand and a TV remote in the other.
Unfortunately, true fury leading to action requires a sustained imposotion limiting the comforts of fat, lazy American like me. We see these abuses on CNN and get downright peeved. Then, we grab a fourth cup of coffee and turn the channel to ESPN to see whether the Cavs or the Pistons won last night.
There are lots of things that piss us off on a daily basis. We just have no means to channel our anger or disillusionment in a way that will force change. The best vehicle we have for concentrating our our individual complaints into a serious and credible call for action is the media, and...well...they have thier own agenda. Of course, that agenda has little to do with serving the people.
We have to wander a whole lot further down the wrong road before we actually begin to see where that road is really going. We, the fat and the lazy, will have to loose a hell of a lot more comforts before we roll off of our sofas and actually do something besides bitch to our wives and friends.
I just hope we aren't already too late.
I heard a great quote to do with this somewhere (please enlighten me if you know who said it): "It's too late to work within the system, but too early to start shooting the bastards"
Unfortunately, in every election, we're stuck with picking the lesser of two evils. I've been depressed by the two elections I was able to vote in. None of the candidates in recent years has been a strong, capable leader, or even an honest person. Bush is obviously the father of lies, Clinton (duh), John Kerry changed his position every fifteen seconds... and it goes on. The kinds of people we need in office are the kinds of people incapable of compromising their own integrity to get there. Quite a dilemma, if you ask me. |
"A person is smart; people are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals..." -MIB |
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JohnOAS
SFN Regular
Australia
800 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2006 : 19:21:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Grumpy_Bear
The kinds of people we need in office are the kinds of people incapable of compromising their own integrity to get there. Quite a dilemma, if you ask me.
I've always felt that anyone who actually wants to be a politician probably shouldn't be allowed to become one.
Cynicism aside, forcing people into office against their will is hardly a promising alternative. |
John's just this guy, you know. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2006 : 10:19:48 [Permalink]
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If the Evangelicals can join and take over (to a degree, anyway) the Republican Party, the Progressives can certainly join and take over the Democratic Party. We have Dean in charge, now we need to get candidates into the Primaries.
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2006 : 15:43:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Original_Intent
Why do we bother counting the number of laws he broke? Is it worse that he broke 1 law then 750? Is it worse that he broke 750 when compared to Clinto only breaking a couple of hundred? Why is it worse when he breaks the same laws that Clinton broke? It is all pretty silly. So the Conservatives are curropt, is this new? They were launched into power because of the curoption of the Democrats in the Clinton years (is this old?). Back and forth it will go. Not to sound urban, urbane or blasie, but quit hating the players and hate the game.
Why bother? Because the conservatives are in power right now. They are here, in the average American's face, screwing them all, right now.
Also, consider this: Most Democrats as a group generally argue among themselves, stumble, run off into independent tangents, contradict each other and likely appear weaker than the Republicans and more vulnerable to attack by them. Conservatives, especially since Bush, always tend to close ranks and usually stand together. The so-called moderate Republicans usually remain quiet and allow the rightwing radicals to attack on their trumped-up controversial issues rather than contradict them. But there is a big and growing price for the Republicans to pay with this attitude: If you're a "Republican" or a "Conservative", since Bush, no matter how "moderate" you say you are, it will now be assumed that you always agree 100% with everything stated by Bush, Jerry Falwell, Ann Coulter, James Dobson, Pat Roberson, Rush Limbaugh and Fox News. Without exception, if you openly call yourself a "Conservative" or a "Republican" – Bush has destroyed the term "Conservative" for you.
The NeoCons from time to time try of course to find something dumb some lefty said or did and pin it on all Democrats or anyone who opposes their view. Yes, that's politics. But it doesn't really stick with the public anymore (including some "conservatives".) What does seem to stick is the growing notion that all Republicans are radicals who want the world to end (so their personal rightwing Jesus will return,) hate personal freedoms of citizens, secretly promote BIG monolithic, in-your-face government and military power, and are motivated by self-righteous dogmas. I think more and more people, though not wording it the way I did, are summing it up in a general attitude that the Republican party is exclusive of democracy, and is selfish and basically evil.
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Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2006 : 18:03:54 [Permalink]
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Instead of laboriously listing the hundreds (or even thousands) of laws Bush has broken, why not list the few he has not thus far been able to violate?
I will start, and I invite others to dispute or comment upon the entries, and/or to add to this short list:
1. The Law of Gravitation
2. The Law of Diminishing Returns.
3. The Law of the Wild. (Related: The Law of the Jungle.)
4. The Law West of the Pecos.
5. The Laws of Thermodynamics.
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And as a free bonus, apropos of nothing, I give you this quote:
quote:
Tuesday, May. 30, 2006
“Zolten is a common Hungarian name, it's my wife's maiden name and, most importantly, it's the name of Dracula's dog.”
— Penn Jillete
On the name of his newborn son who joins a one-year old sister, Moxie Crimefighter
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 06/10/2006 18:12:37 |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2006 : 19:05:26 [Permalink]
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6) Murphy's Law (I think he probably swears by this given his actions)
7) Three Laws of Motion
8) Laws of Attraction |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2006 : 06:00:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
Instead of laboriously listing the hundreds (or even thousands) of laws Bush has broken, why not list the few he has not thus far been able to violate?
I will start, and I invite others to dispute or comment upon the entries, and/or to add to this short list:
1. The Law of Gravitation
2. The Law of Diminishing Returns.
3. The Law of the Wild. (Related: The Law of the Jungle.)
4. The Law West of the Pecos.
5. The Laws of Thermodynamics.
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And as a free bonus, apropos of nothing, I give you this quote:
quote:
Tuesday, May. 30, 2006
“Zolten is a common Hungarian name, it's my wife's maiden name and, most importantly, it's the name of Dracula's dog.”
— Penn Jillete
On the name of his newborn son who joins a one-year old sister, Moxie Crimefighter
Nope. He's violated the law west of the Pecos. And Yosemite Sam is pretty pissed off about it. He has issued a statement saying, "I hates Bush."
9) Cheops Law (nothing is ever completed on time or under budget)
10) Archimedies Law of Displacement
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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