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 Two cloned mules in dead heat
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2006 :  13:15:36  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
This is presumably not a formal scientific experiment, but I think it's telling us something interesting, anyway. Two mules, cloned from the same champion parent, were trained separately, but both are showing remarkably similar winning traits in the professional mule-racing circuit. Thus far, they are neck-and-neck with one another, and ahead of the pack.


The University of Idaho's three mule clones practiced their racing skills as yearlings in an Idaho pasture in 2004. Idaho Gem and Idaho Star have been in training for racing since 2005 with different trainers. Credit: Kelly Weaver/University of Idaho

According to an AP article in LiveScience:
quote:
Cloned Mules Win Preliminary Races
By Martin Griffith
Associated Press
posted: 04 June 2006
02:58 pm ET

WINNEMUCCA, Nev. (AP) _ Two qualifying heats, two wire-to-wire victories, two nearly identical times. It was almost like the same mule won twice. Idaho Gem, the world's first equine clone, and his brother, Idaho Star, made successful debuts Saturday in what scientists billed as the first professional competition between clones of any kind.

The mules will compete against each other _ and six naturally bred animals _ for an $8,500 purse in the finals of their bracket Sunday at the 20th annual Winnemucca Mule Race, Show & Draft Horse Challenge.

Idaho Gem covered his 350-yard sprint Saturday in 21.817 seconds, winning by 1 1/4 lengths over five rivals. Idaho Star was less than three hundredths of a second faster, finishing in 21.790 seconds to win by a half length over four competitors.

"For both to win first, it is awesome,'' said Don Jacklin, an Idaho businessman who helped finance the cloning project. "I think it is going to open a lot of eyes as far as cloning. I think the race experience will go a long way to show what cloning can do.''

The clones were born three years ago and carry identical DNA taken from a fetus produced by the same parents that sired a champion mule racer.

Researchers on the cloning team said Idaho Gem and Idaho Star have been separated for two years and trained separately, so watching how they perform against each other will offer insight into the role played by environmental variables, such as diet and training regimens, in developing mules.

Gordon Woods, the University of Idaho scientist who created the clones, said he was pleased the clones passed their first major test. He noted that the historic cloning of Dolly the sheep in 1997 decreased her strength and agility.

"It says to me very clearly that the technology by which we cloned them appears to have not decreased their athletic performance,'' Woods said. "For me, it was a huge milestone achievement on a long uphill climb.''

A record crowd of 1,000 stood and cheered Saturday as the mules raced down the stretch of an oval dirt track in front of a wooden grandstand in the rural Western town where members of Butch Cassidy's Wild Bunch robbed a bank in 1900.

Ron Roark, 62, of Reno, placed $5 bets on each clone to win, picking up $9.50 for Idaho Star and $8 for Idaho Gem.

"I wanted both to win because I'm a techie geek and I like the fact that techie geeks are making advances on cloning,'' Roark said. "A lot of good to human health can come as a result of it.''

Bill Sims, 55, of Winnemucca, said he bet against the clones "to prove nature knows best.''

"I have doubts about cloning,'' he said.

. . .


My impression: Going into the far turn, Nature by a length over Nurture. Your comments?


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.

Edited by - HalfMooner on 06/04/2006 13:20:55

Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9677 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2006 :  15:34:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
This looks like a perfect setting for finding out which training method and diet is most effective. For the very first time, trainers have exactly the same source material to work on. Any difference simply has to be the effect of Nurture.

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Hawks
SFN Regular

Canada
1383 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2006 :  16:47:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Hawks's Homepage Send Hawks a Private Message
There is always room for error when DNA is duplicated, so creating perfect clones (especially with large genomes) is near impossible. Factors such as the pre-birth environment(eg in the placenta) of any clone might also be important. But of course, genetic variation has been reduced in clones, making it much easier sorting out the nature vs nurture question.

As Halfmooner pointed out, you might not want to read too much into the result of the race of the cloned mules. It was after all just one race between 2 clones. Sample size=1. No conclusions can be drawn. But hey, more clones will be created and more races will be run.

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It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden!
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2006 :  17:08:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
Also: Mules, since they don't normally breed, are prime animals for practical cloning, especially champion mules.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 06/04/2006 17:17:30
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Boron10
Religion Moderator

USA
1265 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2006 :  17:10:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Boron10 a Private Message
quote:
The University of Idaho ....
I went to school there!
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2006 :  21:03:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
Now this follow-up AP article at CNN.com. (Note that the writer uses the phrase, "Nature vs. Nurture" much differently than we have.):
quote:
Cloned mules don't hoof it fast enough
Natural-born racers beat miracles of science in Nevada


Sunday, June 4, 2006; Posted: 10:24 p.m. EDT (02:24 GMT)


WINNEMUCCA, Nevada (AP) -- Nature triumphed over nurture as two cloned mule brothers came up short in a professional race against traditionally bred runners.

Idaho Gem, the world's first equine clone, finished third, while Idaho Star wound up seventh in an eight-way race Sunday at the 20th annual Winnemucca Mule Races, Show & Draft Horse Challenge.

Idaho Gem covered his 350-yard sprint in 21.246 seconds -- two-and-a-half lengths behind the winner, Bar JF Hot Ticket, who finished in 20.866 seconds. Idaho Star checked in at 22.181 seconds.

"I think both animals, especially Idaho Gem, showed they have a lot of upside," said Don Jacklin, an Idaho man who helped finance the cloning project. "They both proved they could compete."

The clones, who competed for an $8,500 purse in the finals of their bracket, won their qualifying heats Saturday in what was billed as the first professional competition between clones of any kind.

A thousand people cheered as the mules raced down the stretch of an oval track in Winnemucca, about 160 miles northeast of Reno.

Winnemucca was the first stop on a professional mule racing circuit that will shift to county fairs in California through the summer.

Researchers on the cloning team hailed the clones' athletic performance and the project's benefits to human cancer research.

"Their performance is one thing that will make people feel warm and fuzzy about cloning," said Kenneth White, a Utah State University professor who conducted the cloning.

A mule is the usually sterile offspring of a donkey father and a horse mother. The clones were born three years ago and carry identical DNA taken from a fetus produced by the same parents that sired a champion racing mule.

. . .




Cloned mule Idaho Gem, center,
crosses the finish line for the
win Saturday in Winnemucca, Nevada.





Cloned mule Idaho Star gets
a scratch from his trainer
Friday in Winnemucca, Nevada.







Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 06/04/2006 21:35:21
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Zebra
Skeptic Friend

USA
354 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2006 :  22:56:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Zebra a Private Message
"Mule" and "champion" in the same sentence...what is this world coming to?

I think, you know, freedom means freedom for everyone* -Dick Cheney

*some restrictions may apply
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Snake
SFN Addict

USA
2511 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2006 :  23:13:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Snake's Homepage  Send Snake an ICQ Message  Send Snake a Yahoo! Message Send Snake a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner

Also: Mules, since they don't normally breed, are prime animals for practical cloning, especially champion mules.



Excuse ME! But, they don't 'normally breed' because they CAN'T breed.

I might add that having been a racing fan for many a year, granted only horse racing and out of it for a while but still, I've never heard of mule racing. I have to wonder if someones'leg isn't being pulled. Maybe it's on a minor rodeo circit or out in the boon docks. And how come we've heard so much about other animals that were cloned but not about this. Until this 'race'. True, I don't listen to all of this kind of news nor read scientific journals but this is such a sudden news story. Sounds odd to me.
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Snake
SFN Addict

USA
2511 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2006 :  23:38:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Snake's Homepage  Send Snake an ICQ Message  Send Snake a Yahoo! Message Send Snake a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner

Now this follow-up AP article at CNN.com. (Note that the writer uses the phrase, "Nature vs. Nurture" much differently than we have.):
quote:
Cloned mules don't hoof it fast enough
Natural-born racers beat miracles of science in Nevada


Sunday, June 4, 2006; Posted: 10:24 p.m. EDT (02:24 GMT)


WINNEMUCCA, Nevada (AP) -- Nature triumphed over nurture as two cloned mule brothers came up short in a professional race against traditionally bred runners.

Idaho Gem, the world's first equine clone, finished third, while Idaho Star wound up seventh in an eight-way race Sunday at the 20th annual Winnemucca Mule Races, Show & Draft Horse Challenge.

Idaho Gem covered his 350-yard sprint in 21.246 seconds -- two-and-a-half lengths behind the winner, Bar JF Hot Ticket, who finished in 20.866 seconds. Idaho Star checked in at 22.181 seconds.

"I think both animals, especially Idaho Gem, showed they have a lot of upside," said Don Jacklin, an Idaho man who helped finance the cloning project. "They both proved they could compete."

The clones, who competed for an $8,500 purse in the finals of their bracket, won their qualifying heats Saturday in what was billed as the first professional competition between clones of any kind.

A thousand people cheered as the mules raced down the stretch of an oval track in Winnemucca, about 160 miles northeast of Reno.

Winnemucca was the first stop on a professional mule racing circuit that will shift to county fairs in California through the summer.

Researchers on the cloning team hailed the clones' athletic performance and the project's benefits to human cancer research.

"Their performance is one thing that will make people feel warm and fuzzy about cloning," said Kenneth White, a Utah State University professor who conducted the cloning.

A mule is the usually sterile offspring of a donkey father and a horse mother. The clones were born three years ago and carry identical DNA taken from a fetus produced by the same parents that sired a champion racing mule.

. . .




Cloned mule Idaho Gem, center,
crosses the finish line for the
win Saturday in Winnemucca, Nevada.





Cloned mule Idaho Star gets
a scratch from his trainer
Friday in Winnemucca, Nevada.








Ok, I just read this:
"Winnemucca was the first stop on a professional mule racing circuit that will shift to county fairs in California through the summer." in that article.
I just can't see mule racing at any track I know of. Horse racing has had a drop in attendance in the past few years, why would any major track want Mules?!!! Of course some people will bet on anything, haha.
Mules!!! Must be for hicks.
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Snake
SFN Addict

USA
2511 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2006 :  23:47:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Snake's Homepage  Send Snake an ICQ Message  Send Snake a Yahoo! Message Send Snake a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner

Now this follow-up AP article at CNN.com. (Note that the writer uses the phrase, "Nature vs. Nurture" much differently than we have.):
quote:
Cloned mules don't hoof it fast enough
Natural-born racers beat miracles of science in Nevada


Sunday, June 4, 2006; Posted: 10:24 p.m. EDT (02:24 GMT)


WINNEMUCCA, Nevada (AP) -- Nature triumphed over nurture as two cloned mule brothers came up short in a professional race against traditionally bred runners.

Idaho Gem, the world's first equine clone, finished third, while Idaho Star wound up seventh in an eight-way race Sunday at the 20th annual Winnemucca Mule Races, Show & Draft Horse Challenge.

Idaho Gem covered his 350-yard sprint in 21.246 seconds -- two-and-a-half lengths behind the winner, Bar JF Hot Ticket, who finished in 20.866 seconds. Idaho Star checked in at 22.181 seconds.

"I think both animals, especially Idaho Gem, showed they have a lot of upside," said Don Jacklin, an Idaho man who helped finance the cloning project. "They both proved they could compete."

The clones, who competed for an $8,500 purse in the finals of their bracket, won their qualifying heats Saturday in what was billed as the first professional competition between clones of any kind.

A thousand people cheered as the mules raced down the stretch of an oval track in Winnemucca, about 160 miles northeast of Reno.

Winnemucca was the first stop on a professional mule racing circuit that will shift to county fairs in California through the summer.

Researchers on the cloning team hailed the clones' athletic performance and the project's benefits to human cancer research.

"Their performance is one thing that will make people feel warm and fuzzy about cloning," said Kenneth White, a Utah State University professor who conducted the cloning.

A mule is the usually sterile offspring of a donkey father and a horse mother. The clones were born three years ago and carry identical DNA taken from a fetus produced by the same parents that sired a champion racing mule.

. . .




Cloned mule Idaho Gem, center,
crosses the finish line for the
win Saturday in Winnemucca, Nevada.





Cloned mule Idaho Star gets
a scratch from his trainer
Friday in Winnemucca, Nevada.







"A mule is the usually sterile offspring of a donkey father and a horse mother."
Ok, see, that's what I said.
One of the ways people bet on horses is breeding and bloodlines. How the hell can one bet on a Mule if they don't know that much about it?
I still say it sounds like something 'funny' is going on. Instead of the 'Sport of Kings' as with horses, Mule racing must be the sport of yokels.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 06/05/2006 :  00:49:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Snake


I just can't see mule racing at any track I know of. Horse racing has had a drop in attendance in the past few years, why would any major track want Mules?!!! Of course some people will bet on anything, haha.
Mules!!! Must be for hicks.

I think it might be more fair to say that mule-racing is a sport of working people. The mule is slower than the horse, but has much more stamina for the long haul, is stronger, and handles rough terrain better than the horse. If you want to ride a short distance over flat terrain quickly, get a horse. If you want to carry a heavy load a great distance over hill and dale, get a mule. This indeed may make mule-racing appeal to practical people with calluses on their hands. Hicks, you might call some of them.

To this day, I believe, the phone company I worked for, Pacific Bell (nee SBC nee AT&T) uses pack mules to service phone lines in the Sierra Nevada. If you want to hire a ride in the Grand Canyon from the Rim down a trail to the Colorado River, it's a mule, not a horse, that you will ride. People laugh at the mule (it brays back, in fact), but it's a serious, hard-working animal.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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Siberia
SFN Addict

Brazil
2322 Posts

Posted - 06/05/2006 :  06:13:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Siberia's Homepage  Send Siberia an AOL message  Send Siberia a Yahoo! Message Send Siberia a Private Message
Uh, mule racing is a quite popular sport in Brazil's countryside - and sometimes it's even on rural TV channels! I frequently see mule auctions that advertise their excellence as sport animals, champions and such. Nothing new on that aspect.

It's quite interesting, this experiment. Not to say the mule(s) in question is (are?) adorable.

"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa

"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 06/05/2006 :  13:15:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Snake

quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner

Also: Mules, since they don't normally breed, are prime animals for practical cloning, especially champion mules.


Excuse ME! But, they don't 'normally breed' because they CAN'T breed.
Almost all of the time, you'd indeed be correct, Snake. But I'd used that cautious phrase, "... since they don't normally breed ..." for a reason. Wikipedia states:
quote:
Fertile mules

Several female mules have produced offspring when mated to a purebred horse or ass. Since 1527 there have been more than 60 documented cases of foals born to female mules around the world. Mules and hinnies have 63 chromosomes that are a mixture of one from each parent. The different structure and number usually prevents the chromosomes from pairing up properly and creating successful embryos.

* Cornevin and Lesbre stated that in 1873 an Arab mule in Africa was bred to a stallion and produced female offspring. The parents and the offspring were sent to the Jardin d'Acclimatation in Paris. The mule produced a second female offspring sired by the same stallion and then two male offspring, one sired by an ass and the other by a stallion. The female progeny were fertile, but their offspring were feeble and died at birth. Cossar Ewart recorded an Indian case in which a female mule gave birth to a male colt. The best documented fertile mule mare was "Krause" who produced two male offspring when bred back to her own sire.

* In most fertile mule mares, the mare passes on a complete set of her maternal genes (i.e. from her horse/pony mother) to the foal; a female mule bred to a horse will therefore produce a 100% horse foal. In the 1920s, "Old Beck" (Texas A&M) produced a mule daughter called "Kit". When Old Beck was bred to a horse stallion she produced a horse son (he sired horse foals). When bred to a donkey, she produced mule offspring. Likewise, a mare mule in Brazil has produced two 100% horse sons sired by a horse stallion.

* In Morocco, a mare mule produced a male foal that was 75% donkey and 25% horse i.e. she passed on a mixture of genes instead of passing on her maternal chromosomes in the expected way. There are no recorded cases of fertile mule stallions. There is an unverified case of a mare mule that produced a mule daughter. The daughter was also fertile and produced a horse-like foal with some mule traits; this was dubbed a "hule". There are no reports as to whether the mule was fertile.

* A comparable case is that of a fertile hinny (ass mother, horse sire the reverse of a mule) in China. Her offspring, "Dragon Foal", was sired by a donkey. Scientists expected a donkey foal if the mother had passed on her maternal chromosomes in the same way as a mule. However, Dragon Foal resembles a strange donkey with mule-like features. Her chromosomes and DNA tests confirm that she is a previously undocumented combination.



Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 06/05/2006 13:15:52
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 06/05/2006 :  13:23:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Siberia

Uh, mule racing is a quite popular sport in Brazil's countryside - and sometimes it's even on rural TV channels! I frequently see mule auctions that advertise their excellence as sport animals, champions and such. Nothing new on that aspect.

It's quite interesting, this experiment. Not to say the mule(s) in question is (are?) adorable.

Thanks for that information about Brazilian mule racing, Siberia. I agree, the mules can be "adorble," as in the photo of Idaho Star closing its eyes as its head is scratched. As a long-time dog lover, I recognized that reaction.

Could you describe any differences in a mule race course, as compared to a horse racing course? I mean, are the mules being run over rougher terrain?


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 06/05/2006 13:24:15
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Snake
SFN Addict

USA
2511 Posts

Posted - 06/05/2006 :  16:02:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Snake's Homepage  Send Snake an ICQ Message  Send Snake a Yahoo! Message Send Snake a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
I think it might be more fair to say that mule-racing is a sport of working people. The mule is slower than the horse,

Yeah, yeah. Whatever. Like the $2 better isn't the largest number of people placing bets at the track.
And thank you for the history of the mule. I love all animals, except Man, so you don't have to tell me how wonderful they are.
I still say it sounds like a hoax to me. Horse... HORSE racing is highly regulated in California. The meetings only have a certain number of days each. There's an agency that everyone reports to for every aspect of the sport. I don't see anywhere how there could be room for mules. If there's betting on them, where is the agency that controls that? Have you ever seen the sports book areas in Vegas!!! If they could bet on mules, I bet (no pun intended) they'd have it. Where is it? If there is mule racing it's got to be way, way out in the boondocks. I still say, it's not on any track (in California) that's I've ever heard of.
ps. did someone mention something about working for T? When Ma Bell was split up, my division went to Pac Bell, I had several 'interesting' jobs with them. From Opr. to Main Frame and in between. Too bad the gov. messed with it back then. Unions SUCK!
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 06/05/2006 :  16:30:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Snake

quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
I think it might be more fair to say that mule-racing is a sport of working people. The mule is slower than the horse,

Yeah, yeah. Whatever. Like the $2 better isn't the largest number of people placing bets at the track.
And thank you for the history of the mule. I love all animals, except Man, so you don't have to tell me how wonderful they are.
I still say it sounds like a hoax to me. Horse... HORSE racing is highly regulated in California. The meetings only have a certain number of days each. There's an agency that everyone reports to for every aspect of the sport. I don't see anywhere how there could be room for mules. If there's betting on them, where is the agency that controls that? Have you ever seen the sports book areas in Vegas!!! If they could bet on mules, I bet (no pun intended) they'd have it. Where is it? If there is mule racing it's got to be way, way out in the boondocks. I still say, it's not on any track (in California) that's I've ever heard of.
ps. did someone mention something about working for T? When Ma Bell was split up, my division went to Pac Bell, I had several 'interesting' jobs with them. From Opr. to Main Frame and in between. Too bad the gov. messed with it back then. Unions SUCK!

You clearly have more knowledge of racetracks, Snake, and the betting there, than I do. Indeed, I can't imagine the slower (and less beautiful) mules ever being a serious threat to horse racing.

As for the issue of the phone company and unions, I was the guy who mentioned having worked there. I was employed from 1969 to 1997. And I was a CWA Union Steward for many of those years.

I agree, unions often suck, and they do so when they don't fight hard for their members. I tried to fight the good fight. My greatest legacies as a Union Steward were in saving the jobs of several people the company wanted to fire, and in launching a grievance which eventually got hundreds of thousands of dollars in back pay for several hundred clerks, mostly women, throughout the company. These clerks had been made to handle very heavy hardware stocks without being properly paid for the heavy lifting required.

I started on the Mainframe myself, Snake! At the Mission office in San Francisco, in 1969.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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