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JohnOAS
SFN Regular

Australia
800 Posts

Posted - 06/20/2006 :  21:43:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit JohnOAS's Homepage Send JohnOAS a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Ricky

truth, also known as qxcd, sent me this link. I'm about half way through the 27 minute audio clip. I think the best line so far is:

"So God came down in a human suit to kill himself to save us from him?"


Funny stuff.

Does the bible say anything about recording people without their permission? (I'm making an assumption there I know). Our own laws (at least here), are woefully behind the times, but they're still better than the biblical "laws". You'd think an omnipotent being could do better.

John's just this guy, you know.
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 06/20/2006 :  23:21:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by JohnOAS
Does the bible say anything about recording people without their permission? (I'm making an assumption there I know). Our own laws (at least here), are woefully behind the times, but they're still better than the biblical "laws". You'd think an omnipotent being could do better.

As far as I'm aware, In the U.S. you are legally allowed to record any conversation in which you are a participant without having to reveal that you are doing so. You're just not allowed to record the conversations of others covertly, which is why police need a court order to eavesdrop on a phonecall between a mafia boss and his pizza guy but not between a mafia boss and an undercover agent wearing a listening device.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 06/20/2006 23:22:36
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JohnOAS
SFN Regular

Australia
800 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2006 :  18:00:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit JohnOAS's Homepage Send JohnOAS a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert

quote:
Originally posted by JohnOAS
Does the bible say anything about recording people without their permission? (I'm making an assumption there I know). Our own laws (at least here), are woefully behind the times, but they're still better than the biblical "laws". You'd think an omnipotent being could do better.

As far as I'm aware, In the U.S. you are legally allowed to record any conversation in which you are a participant without having to reveal that you are doing so. You're just not allowed to record the conversations of others covertly, which is why police need a court order to eavesdrop on a phonecall between a mafia boss and his pizza guy but not between a mafia boss and an undercover agent wearing a listening device.


Interesting. Here we have to get a warrant regardless of one of the participants knowledge or law-enforcement status.

I've heard different stories about US legislation in this regard. I believe your warrants run for only 7 day periods (I'm thinking telephone interception type warrants here), and may also require the informing of the targets after the completion of the warrant, although this last part sounds more than a bit fishy.

John's just this guy, you know.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2006 :  18:14:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
JohnOAS noted:

"I've heard different stories about US legislation in this regard. I believe your warrants run for only 7 day periods (I'm thinking telephone interception type warrants here), and may also require the informing of the targets after the completion of the warrant, although this last part sounds more than a bit fishy."

That was before the massively pervasive spying that the Bush folks began. Our laws were indeed fairly protective of civil liberties, disallowing spying without warrant. Mostly, we still have the same laws as ever, except they are now being violated in the most extreme way ever. Of course, even the full extent of this spying is itself a state secret.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular

USA
1191 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2006 :  18:23:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send R.Wreck a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Giltwist

How come none of you make posts like this about Buddhism, Taoism, Islam, or any of the other religions in the world?



Well I always thought the Hare Krishnas were kind of goofy when they'd hang out in airports and hand out books. And I once was on a flight with a bunch of Rajneeshis who were annoying as hell, with their red robes and black plastic beads, hanging pictures of the bhagwan all over the plane, and their seeming inability to sit down and shut up for even one minute.

The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley

The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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Giltwist
Skeptic Friend

USA
69 Posts

Posted - 06/26/2006 :  18:27:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Giltwist's Homepage  Send Giltwist an AOL message  Send Giltwist an ICQ Message  Send Giltwist a Yahoo! Message Send Giltwist a Private Message
I will admit Christians do the most poking. However, if we are trying to set a good example, I think it would be hypocritical of us to only critique one religion.

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26014 Posts

Posted - 06/26/2006 :  20:45:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Giltwist

I will admit Christians do the most poking. However, if we are trying to set a good example, I think it would be hypocritical of us to only critique one religion.
That's why we don't. Heck, look at the grilling Scientology is getting in our forums now. Some Islamic creation stories have also been run through the mill here. We've also snickered at the Raelians, and Kil prefaced one of his articles with a huge "poke" at the chanting Buddhists. We've even had a huge debate over what a "religion" is at the most-basic levels, and another over whether or not religious people can be good scientists.

Really, what gets "critiqued" here most often isn't a particular religion, but instead the people who claim to be of that religion, who insist on doing the most horrendous things in their god's name. People like Pat Robertson and Fred Phelps. And I think that most people here would agree that their behaviour drags down the level of dignity and respect accorded to their self-proclaimed religious group(s), which would probably be better off without those individuals.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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lifeloss
New Member

5 Posts

Posted - 06/29/2006 :  13:51:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send lifeloss a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal

I've said before the whole idea of claiming Jesus suffered and died for the sins of humans is absurd.

Who are you?
quote:
Why should having more humans torture and kill your child move you to forgive the same people for your earlier complaints about them?

It didn't move Him to forgive. Jesus dying on the cross was penance for our sins. Therefore by accepting him and giving your life to Him, His blood symbolically covers our sins and allows us to be acceptable to God thereby gaining acceptance into heaven.

quote:
Is there even any logic to that? Why not just forgive people. Why not just forgive them after they say 10 hail Marys or something?

Because, like I've read many times in these forums, that would just be trying to do enough to avoid hell. God created us with the ability to choose right or wrong. If we choose wrong and choose to live without Him, he grants us that same wish after we die and vice versa. He wants us to choose Him without becoming robots that have to choose Him. He wants us to have a relationship with Him and we can't truly have that if we're forced to be with Him or don't have to worry about consequences for the wrong things we do. Therefore, He won't just look the other way when we commit sins.

quote:
And calling Jesus God's son. So beings God made out of dirt and called children aren't as good as an offspring God implants in one of those dirt creatures later on. That makes Jesus a son?


I think I know what you mean but I'm not sure. Jesus is better than us because He is God. He is part of the Trinity (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) as the Son. He came to earth willingly to die for our sins because we could never be good enough to save ourselves. Everyone commits sins.

Now, these explanations are based on the bible and not from my own mind. These things are the way they are because that's the way it has to be. I don't know why. We're not meant to know everything. It doesn't matter because it won't change. If you think they are fairy tale stories that's fine. I think people believing species evolve from other species is a fairy tale. We can disagree. If you have honest questions of me than by all means.... If you have criticisms then by all means.... I am here to debate.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 06/29/2006 :  15:29:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
So, lifeloss has the brass to ask beskeptigal: "Who are you?"

Whoever she is, stranger, she's got as much of a right to express her opinions as you do. Those opinions tend to be a lot more logic-driven than your own, as they do not rely upon an ancient book as the sole source of unquestionable truth.

I think the fact that beskeptigal does not accept a zombie god who instructed his cultists in a cannibalistic and vampiric rite shows her relative good sense.

[Edit: Corrected to add, "and vampiric."]


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 06/29/2006 21:33:18
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 06/29/2006 :  16:34:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
quote:
He wants us to choose Him without becoming robots that have to choose Him. He wants us to have a relationship with Him and we can't truly have that if we're forced to be with Him or don't have to worry about consequences for the wrong things we do.


For what reason does God want this?

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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Siberia
SFN Addict

Brazil
2322 Posts

Posted - 06/29/2006 :  17:59:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Siberia's Homepage  Send Siberia an AOL message  Send Siberia a Yahoo! Message Send Siberia a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by lifeloss

Because, like I've read many times in these forums, that would just be trying to do enough to avoid hell. God created us with the ability to choose right or wrong. If we choose wrong and choose to live without Him, he grants us that same wish after we die and vice versa. He wants us to choose Him without becoming robots that have to choose Him. He wants us to have a relationship with Him and we can't truly have that if we're forced to be with Him or don't have to worry about consequences for the wrong things we do. Therefore, He won't just look the other way when we commit sins.


Yeah, worship or go to Hell and be tortured for the rest of eternity. That's really not forcing at all. Honest.

"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa

"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
Edited by - Siberia on 06/29/2006 18:00:28
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9680 Posts

Posted - 06/29/2006 :  19:58:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by lifeloss
I think people believing species evolve from other species is a fairy tale. We can disagree. If you have honest questions of me than by all means.... If you have criticisms then by all means.... I am here to debate.


I don't think 'people believeing' in evolution are fairy tales. I'm certain these people exist. I know I am not a fairy tale, and I realise that the theory of biological evolution is the best explanation for the diversity of life on this planet.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 06/30/2006 :  02:14:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by lifeloss

quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal

I've said before the whole idea of claiming Jesus suffered and died for the sins of humans is absurd.

Who are you?
An evidence based believer.
quote:
Originally posted by lifeloss

quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigalWhy should having more humans torture and kill your child move you to forgive the same people for your earlier complaints about them?

It didn't move Him to forgive. Jesus dying on the cross was penance for our sins. Therefore by accepting him and giving your life to Him, His blood symbolically covers our sins and allows us to be acceptable to God thereby gaining acceptance into heaven.
Well that's your interpretation. My interpretation is there is no logic in that at all. What's the sacrifice? You know the verse, "For God so loved the world, he gave his only begotten son"? In other words, God supposedly sacrificed something dear to him to appease himself. No matter how you twist it into symbolic blood, it's still absurd if you actually think about it.

quote:
Originally posted by lifeloss

quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigalIs there even any logic to that? Why not just forgive people. Why not just forgive them after they say 10 hail Marys or something?

Because, like I've read many times in these forums, that would just be trying to do enough to avoid hell. God created us with the ability to choose right or wrong. If we choose wrong and choose to live without Him, he grants us that same wish after we die and vice versa. He wants us to choose Him without becoming robots that have to choose Him. He wants us to have a relationship with Him and we can't truly have that if we're forced to be with Him or don't have to worry about consequences for the wrong things we do. Therefore, He won't just look the other way when we commit sins.
This is more nonsense. The only sin that matters is not believing. The creepiest child raping torturing murderer can just ask for forgiveness and the noblest self sacrificing altruistic person gets to burn in hell for not worshiping. Even if you believed in the Biblical God, who would worship something so cruel and claim it was voluntary? Either you think letting that raping torturing child murderer rape torture and kill children is OK because God has some reason or you have to be in denial about it. I wouldn't worship a horrible God even if I thought there was any evidence one existed.

quote:
Originally posted by lifeloss

quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigalAnd calling Jesus God's son. So beings God made out of dirt and called children aren't as good as an offspring God implants in one of those dirt creatures later on. That makes Jesus a son?


I think I know what you mean but I'm not sure. Jesus is better than us because He is God. He is part of the Trinity (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) as the Son. He came to earth willingly to die for our sins because we could never be good enough to save ourselves. Everyone commits sins.
Speak for yourself.

Let's just see how that pans out. God of the Bible punished Eve and all women to follow with the "pain of childbirth". Well that certainly doesn't depend on believing in Jesus or God. Now we can have anesthesia, and that wasn't invented 2,000 years ago. So how does that fit in your scenario? And BTW, do you toil? What if you are a rich atheist, or Hindu? Do they toil? How about a good Christian subsistence farmer?


quote:
Originally posted by lifeloss

Now, these explanations are based on the bible and not from my own mind. These things are the way they are because that's the way it has to be. I don't know why. We're not meant to know everything. It doesn't matter because it won't change. If you think they are fairy tale stories that's fine. I think people believing species evolve from other species is a fairy tale. We can disagree. If you have honest questions of me than by all means.... If you have criticisms then by all means.... I am here to debate.

No, they aren't based on the Bible, they are based on either your or your church's interpretation of the Bible. The Bible is a hodge podge of mixed messages and vague stories.

I would also add that I am very familiar with the Bible. I have read most of it and can probably point out more nonsense in it than you can point out stuff to support your interpretations. I do appreciate your effort, but you are wrong to assume I am just ignorant of the Christian religion. I am well informed, I just don't buy the nonsense like the Emperor bought new clothes.
Edited by - beskeptigal on 06/30/2006 02:19:42
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 06/30/2006 :  03:44:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
First, I think, we must establish the existence of God, one way or the other; some god or other. This has yet to be done beyond religious fulminations and writings from the various churches of all stripes. Then, if that existence has collected enough empirical evidence in it's support, we must determine which scripture(s) is/are the correct one(s), if any. Thus far, none of this has been done to the satisfaction of anyone but the faithful. And 'faith,' by it's very nature, not only requires no supporting evidence but will argue hotly against any evidence that might cast any doubt whatsoever upon it's object.

There is also power, political and material, to be considered. The Churchs have wielded a vast and too often a less than beneficial influence as any reading of their histories will clearly show. Catholism in particular is guilty of horrific repression of any who failed to toe the holy mark, as it were. The Protestants were little better; they just got off to a later start. Islam; same deal. And so forth.

I've forgotten which clown of a politition said it, but one of them came up with something to the effect of: "You can have freedom of religion, but not freedom from religion."

To which I answer: "Watch me, chump.....!" I can ignore Roy's Rock or use it as a cuspidor wherever it might be cluttering up the scenery.

Y'see, I am convinced that religion is the greatest, evil our species has ever inflicted upon itself. History, ancient and recent, and current events, are proving me correct.

Unsupported belief and blind faith are wastes of time and intellect.

Now, that said, what exactly is your problem with the Theory of Evolution and by extension; science, lifeloss? Have you managed to come across some evidence that debunks it all or any part of it? If so, we'd be happy to check it out. Unlike the Young Earth Creationists, we are interested in opposing points of view, especally if they backed up by something other than rhetoric.

Welcome to SFN!






"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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moakley
SFN Regular

USA
1888 Posts

Posted - 06/30/2006 :  04:49:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send moakley a Private Message
lifeloss as you can tell by the responses your are going to need something a bit more substantial than, "The Bible is the word of God and I believe it because it says that it is the word of God."

Mt 27:46 "My God, My God. Why hast thou foresaken me."
Now I know the apologist spin about the weight of human sin and feeling isolated from God for the first time, but I see these words in a different way. He seems to be a relunctant participant and if this was all a part of a plan he seems completely uninformed and unprepared.

Concerning you comment about robots. I believe that you have been so thoroughly programmed to believe, through repetition of this feel good mythology, that you are incapable of thinking outside the book. You can no longer critically consider the merit of ideas based upon the available evidence. You consider them based simply upon whether you view them to support or contradict the contents of your Bible. That's dishonest. If there is a creator god, I suspect that it will be very displeased with your use of the tools that you were given.

Wow, just like Pascal.

Life is good

Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous
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