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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
 Posted - 07/22/2006 : 08:39:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
There are no facts involved? Only because there are so many lies that it's difficult to sort them out.
So, we quit talking about things because some people get angry? Isn't it a shame that people get angry who defend actions that cause people to die and suffer?
Tell me that people never get angry and rude in the other folders.
The politics folder isn't going anywhere. And yes, I am saying that even armed with facts, how they are put together in the realm of politics becomes a matter of opinion. Mine usually being the correct one…  |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2006 : 09:21:51 [Permalink]
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| That's the way you are on every subject. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2006 : 09:25:46 [Permalink]
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2006 : 09:40:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
That's the way you are on every subject.
Oh for crying out loud… |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2006 : 11:16:27 [Permalink]
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Gorgo wrote: quote:
Do you think Clinton didn't invade Iraq?
Clinton didn't invade Iraq. He did bomb Iraq, and that really pissed me off. I'm glad you brought up all of the evil military shit Clinton did because people who lean Left of the current political spectrum do tend to forget those facts (if they ever knew them in the first place.) However, as bad as Clinton's actions were, I don't think they compare to what Bush has done in terms of upsetting the global community and destabilizing several regions. The difference is primarily that Bush does what he does despite the political climate, while Clinton (and Carter, for that matter – hey thanks for posting those interesting articles about him) often did what he did because of the mainstream political climate.
Kil wrote: quote:
I have always had reservations about the politics folder. The truth of it is that of all the critical thinking in the world will only get you an opinion in politics…
And then Gorgo wrote: quote:
There are no facts involved? Only because there are so many lies that it's difficult to sort them out.
Tell me that people never get angry and rude in the other folders.
I gotta agree with Gorgo on this one. Politics, like many subjects, is frustrating because we deal with a mess of facts, speculations, and everything in between, and then we form personal opinions. If any subject desperately requires some critical thinking and constant debate, it is politics.
One of my problems with the local Philadelphia Association for Critical Thinking (PhACT) is that it refuses to deal with politics at all basically because of Kil's above sentiment. As a result, they are nothing more than a small club of nerdy people who like to listen to lectures. Nothing wrong with that, of course, but they have the potential to be a force for good, and they don't even try to fulfill that potential. Meanwhile, the Humanist Freethought groups tend to tow their own party lines and could use a little more critical thinking and debate before they go off writing letters and attending rallies, etc. I wish the best parts of those various communities would come together. Anyway, that's (one of many reasons) why I like this forum.
Humbert wrote: quote:
I believe Snake is a libertarian.
True, but I don't think it matters since Snake absolutely refuses to get into any kind of intelligent discussion about it. She/He just states opinions in a nasty or incoherent (or both) sort of way and then resorts to smart-ass comments about how she/he is persecuted on SFN. Then again, I don't read all posts, so maybe that's based on a very limited experience with Snake.
Gorgo wrote: quote:
Really. (sigh) whatever. LOL
Aw, dude, cut that shit out! All you are doing is distracting from the discussion's content by making fun of Kil's perfectly reasonable and colorful style of commenting – as if you don't have plenty of personality (attitude) in many of you comments!
Plus it's g |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2006 : 12:49:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Aw, dude, cut that shit out!
Wasn't me!
Anyway...
I don't consider myself a liberal, leftist, or whatever the word is these days..
I try to sort out the various political issues of the day and form an opinion on them based on facts.
Odly, over even the last ten years, the side of reason and evidence has been adopted by more of the political left than right. Its almost as if the two sides of the political spectrum switched places in some instances. Fiscal responsibility, to name a big one. Years ago republicans would have filibustered budgets like the ones W submits, and then ran a PR smear campaign against the liberal commie president who submitted it,
It is my opinion that the ultra-right-wing is responsible for cheapening the public discourse on political issues over the last 20 years. Negative PR campaigns, swift-boating, denouncing people as unpatriotic, etc.
I was, a decade ago, pretty firmly a centrist. The policital spectrum has shifted so far right that now most would consider me a lefty. Hell, Nixon era republicans are now considered leftist.
Back on topic...
Politics is the basic interaction of all people within a society. Nothing you do or say lacks political overtones, intended or otherwise.
A skeptics forum should, I think, have a place to talk about politics.
The curent political climate in the US is pretty ugly. It should come as no suprise to anyone that this state of affairs gets reflected in political conversations on web forums.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2006 : 13:18:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Marf:
One of my problems with the local Philadelphia Association for Critical Thinking (PhACT) is that it refuses to deal with politics at all basically because of Kil's above sentiment. As a result, they are nothing more than a small club of nerdy people who like to listen to lectures.
Actually Marf, I agree that politics needs to be discussed by skeptics. I just don't think critical thinking will ever render a consensus in politics by skeptics like it does on…say… homeopathy, because politics is harder to quantify. It is way more chaotic then most of the subjects that we concern ourselves with. I try to approach politics with all the rationality I can muster. I apply critical thinking to the claims of politicians. And I often reach a conclusion. Only thing is, other skeptics reach different conclusions using the same tools.
In the long run, we are still left with our opinions, political science being what it is.
My problem is that we have chased away some great skeptics over differences in politics because we sometimes bring too much emotion into the debate, and we are all so sure we are correct.
I would not do away with the political folder though. Who better to get to the heart of things than skeptics no matter what side is being argued for? The level of debate should be pretty high among skeptics, but sadly, that is not always the case.
And I have been as guilty as anyone else here has on that score, and, I have regretted letting my emotions cloud the issues at times…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2006 : 17:11:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Clinton didn't invade Iraq. He did bomb Iraq, and that really pissed me off.
Patrolling the no-fly zones was an invasion, and in order to bomb, something has to invade airspace somewhere.
Again, he attacked Yugoslavia and Sudan as well. Somalia could be called a bungled humanitarian mission, I suppose, but it was at least incompetent.
The "Cruise Missile Left" loves that, and that is what made him worse. At least everyone outside the U.S. knows there's something wrong with Bush. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2006 : 00:08:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
...I try to approach politics with all the rationality I can muster. I apply critical thinking to the claims of politicians. And I often reach a conclusion. Only thing is, other skeptics reach different conclusions using the same tools.
In the long run, we are still left with our opinions, political science being what it is.
My problem is that we have chased away some great skeptics over differences in politics because we sometimes bring too much emotion into the debate, and we are all so sure we are correct....
If two skeptics are reaching different conclusions and we exclude the moral choices like whether abortion is murder, then one or both may indeed be missing some of the facts. Otherwise both should recognize that there is uncertainty in the outcome of their particular choice and that should mean respect for the other's choice regardless of it being a different choice than yours.
In other words, if we are having a rational discussion, it shouldn't offend anyone, even if there is passion for one's position. If people left the forum over political exchanges one has to wonder what was so offensive? I don't think the politics would have been the real offense, rather, individual personalities regardless of the dispute.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2006 : 02:22:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Aw, dude, cut that shit out! All you are doing is distracting from the discussion's content by making fun of Kil's perfectly reasonable and colorful style of commenting – as if you don't have plenty of personality (attitude) in many of you comments!
Plus it's getting old and really annoying.
Adding (sigh) and saying nothing is only an expression of arrogance, and does not further the discussion. Don't tell me to cut that shit out, that's just a perfectly reasonable and colorful style of commenting to show him what he's doing. I didn't call him an arrogant asshole, I was just showing what I learned from him. We all have our faults, including you, so lay off and set a good example, rather than derailing the discussion by telling us your emotional state if you want me to learn from you. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 07/23/2006 03:53:55 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2006 : 03:53:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
My problem is that we have chased away some great skeptics over differences in politics because we sometimes bring too much emotion into the debate, and we are all so sure we are correct....
Again, if we are skeptically analyzing this situation, it would require some evidence to show that WE (instead of THEY) sometimes bring too much emotion into the debate. Since they are the ones that got pissed off and left, why isn't it safe to assume that THEY are the ones that have a problem with emotions?
I never actually saw Slater attempt to bring anything into a political debate except disdain for those that disagreed with him. That may well be that this is because I didn't know him long. The archives don't go back far enough to show a thread where he actually added anything to a political discussion. Were Piltdown and Tokyodreamer driven out by insults? I don't recall that. Was not @tomic pretty reasonable in trying to get Rubysue to discuss things rationally? I thought so. I wasn't always patient with Trish, but I usually apologized if I went to far, and no one else that I recall ever had much of a problem with her. Who drove her out?
We can only speculate why they left. If they left. Maybe some will be back.
This isn't about trying to change who we are in order to attract people. This is about trying to change who we are in order to learn to be decent people who want to learn as much about the world as we can.
Nothing wrong with trying to learn to be more polite in our dealings with people while we're trying to learn about ourselves and the rest of the world.
Now that I think of it, how many apologies for possible rude behavior have you ever seen here? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 07/23/2006 04:02:55 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2006 : 05:25:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Now that I think of it, how many apologies for possible rude behavior have you ever seen here?
I've put up a few.... Being who I am, I'll probably have to put up a few more, sooner or later.
I was wondering why Piltdown left. I can't seem to recall him getting into heated, political discussions. We lost a good one, there.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2006 : 10:53:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Gorgo:
Adding (sigh) and saying nothing is only an expression of arrogance, and does not further the discussion.
I absolutely said something. I responded to your defining Clinton as “a reasonable right-wing conservative,” which I thought was off base and I explained why I thought you were wrong about that. The “sigh” came from my frustration with the way I see you painting with a very broad brush which I see as nothing new coming from you.
Would you prefer it if I was less then honest in my replies to you? I could do that you
know…
All in all I consider you a voice here at SFN and a part of the debate. It's not that I don't respect your input. But if I become exasperated by what I see as one of your more hyperbolic posts, I'm gonna let you know. I have never purposely set out to insult you as you have me in this thread. That you feel that you have been insulted is noted…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2006 : 11:02:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
filthy:
I was wondering why Piltdown left. I can't seem to recall him getting into heated, political discussions. We lost a good one, there.
I talked to Jimmy via instant message awhile back. He said he might take another look and perhaps start posting again. So who knows?
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2006 : 15:02:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
I have never purposely set out to insult you as you have me in this thread. That you feel that you have been insulted is noted…
Whether I feel insulted is almost irrelevant. Sighing is rude. Your response showed what a reasonable conservative would do. Balance the budget, attempt to straighten out the health care mess as long as big insurance and big pharmaceutical companies went along with it. Some of it a reasonable conservative wouldn't do, such as murder people in far=away places and nurture an extremely large defense budget. Not all of it his fault. NAFTA and GATT are 2 more examples. Again, all that's wrong with them are not all his fault, but he didn't fight them especially hard, either.
I've painted nothing with a broad brush except your behavior, which was just give some of your own back. You tell me that I wouldn't agree with any bombing, with no evidence for such a statement, for instance. You're not always rude, but you often say strange things like, "I can't believe you asked me that" for no apparent reason. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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