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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend

USA
306 Posts

Posted - 08/28/2006 :  20:55:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send GK Paul a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

And I see you added something new since I first replied to your prior post, GK Paul:
quote:
Church members are encouraged to tithe to the church, and liberals are encouraged to tithe to the national teachers union.
Is it possible for people who aren't members of a union to give money to that union? Surely you mean the National Education Association, anyway - and I can't find a "donate" link on their website, nor can I join the NEA because I'm not a professional educator. How would I "tithe" to the NEA even if I were what Coulter calls a "liberal?"

But onto your latest:
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul

In response to Dr. Mabuse and Dave W. questions, Coutler states on page 17 and 18 that Rep. Nancy Pelosi told Democrats they should vote against the Rebublican budget as "an act of worship". Source Joseph Laconte, New York Times, Jan 2 2006.
And Coulter apparently stopped reading with Laconte's piece, instead of finding out why Pelosi said what she said. Let me quote from the Congressional Record (page H12241):
The gentleman from Washington State (Mr. McDermott) quoted the prophet Isaiah. My favorite saying from Isaiah is when he said: “To minister to the needs of God's creation is an act of worship. To ignore those needs is to dishonor the God who made us.”

Let us vote “no” on this budget as an act of worship and for America's children.
That, after she discussed how the budget shortchanges children, the elderly and students. She was talking about worshipping the Christian God, not about worshipping liberalism. And it took me a whole five minutes to figure this out. How long did it take you to get sucked in by another of Coulter's misrepresentations, GK Paul?
quote:
Coulter goes on to say that a former Time magazine White House correspondent [I'm withholding the name but Coulter gives it on page 18] told the Wahington Post in 1998 that she would be happy to give {Clinton oral sex} to thank him for keeping abortion Legal...
Well, another stupid thing said by some idiot or other, and not someone that liberals would consider "infallible" or even any evidence that abortion is some sort of bizarre "sacrament." Of course, Nina Burleigh went on to say, "It was a joke I deeply regret making." She also said, "I think American women should be lining up with their presidential knee-pads on to show their gratitude for keeping the theocracy off our backs." Did Coulter write about that?
quote:
Also churches don't want their followers to use profanity and according to Coulter liberals are discouraged from using the word abortion.
I guess that's something else that Coulter is lying about, 'cause I see liberals encouraging people to talk about abortion all the time, using the word "abortion" to do so.

Kneeling is a sign of reverence in church and apparantly some liberals also kneel when they worship.


"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist

"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton


GK Paul
Edited by - GK Paul on 08/28/2006 21:00:01
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 08/28/2006 :  21:04:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
Kneeling is a sign of reverence in church and apparantly some liberals agree.

Yes, but people also used to kneel before royalty. Kneeling isn't in and of itself a religious activity. Also, I think you're missing a fairly obvious sexual innuendo.

But what is the point of all this, GK? Coulter draws an extremely rough analogy between liberalism and a (godless) religion, using mined quotes, dishonesty, and sweeping generalizations to do so. Why do you think she goes to such lengths to perpetuate this caricature of liberals, and why are you so intent on defending it?


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend

USA
306 Posts

Posted - 08/28/2006 :  21:14:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send GK Paul a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul

quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
(edited to add a fact)



I didn't edit to add a fact, I edited to correct grammar.
I changed a "your" to "you're" as in you are, as it was meant to be (it wasn't correct grammar before the change, so the misspelling should have been obvious).

When you are attributing a quote to me, you damn well better make sure not to distort my words, or I'll start calling you a fucking liar too.

Tread carefully, so you don't stick your foot in your mouth.

I thought the moderator might have put that edited for grammar quote in for some reason above my quote area. I didn't know you did it. I had added a fact about tithing to one of my posts. Personally, I really don't care why people change their posts.


"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist

"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton


GK Paul
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25977 Posts

Posted - 08/28/2006 :  21:16:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul

Kneeling is a sign of reverence in church and apparantly some liberals also kneel when they worship.
So, you're not going to acknowledge that Coulter tried to mislead everyone about the focus of Pelosi's "worship," and you're not going to acknowledge the fact that abortion is discussed all the time using the word "abortion," and you're not going to acknowledge the fact that you can't be bothered to provide evidence in support of your own arguments, but instead you're going to purposefully conflate kneeling in order to felate a man with kneeling in order to pray?

You're in waaaay over your head, kid.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 08/28/2006 :  21:29:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
Incidentally, I don't know if GK simply has nothing to say in reply to my questions or whether he has me on ignore. He sent me a PM a few days ago stating that he found my avatar "distracting" and said that he would put me on ignore if I did not replace it by Monday (8/28). I wrote him back telling him I had no intention of changing it. He never responded, so whether he went ahead and blocked me is anyone's guess.

Is there a way to tell?


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 08/28/2006 :  22:09:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
Your avatar is annoying, HH. But it helps to know the guy is busting a computer in the movie Office Space and not a person, IIRC. Of course I can't imagine making any demand of you. It's your avatar, not mine.
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 08/28/2006 :  22:48:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal

Your avatar is annoying, HH.
Well, I find it to be positively charming.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 08/28/2006 :  22:54:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul

Well its obvious to me that you haven't read the book. She states that liberals tend to have a structured belief system much like a church. For example the Catholic Church has the sacrament of Baptism, and Coulter states that a liberal sacrament is abortion... The Catholic Church used to have the dogma of infallability of the pope, which meant the pope was incapable of being wrong. Coulter states 2 or 3 people [whom I forget the names since I'm not that up on liberal icons] are considered by liberals to be infallable...
Church members are encouraged to tithe to the church, and liberals are encouraged to tithe to the national teachers union. And she goes on and on... Got to go.

And just how is abortion a "sacrament"? That doesn't even make sense. People like Coulter, O'Reilly, Limbaugh, and half the commentators on Fox News use the word abortion out of context and in multiple false claims because they know it triggers a thoughtless response by their targeted audience. I'm a liberal. I'm pro-choice. But I also know the evidence is very clear: abortion rates go down when you improve the health, education, and well being of the poorest members of society. Making abortion illegal has much less impact on abortion rates. Those of us who remember when it was illegal in the USA also remember being illegal certainly didn't stop abortions.

So while people like Coulter use the word abortion because they know it will sell books, the people who Coulter insults (that is "bearing false witness" exactly by the way) with the word abortion are some of the people who are working most effectively towards actually decreasing the number of abortions. Which is more important to you as a believer, actually decreasing the rate of abortions or merely working to make abortions illegal despite the fact it doesn't decrease abortions as much as other methods?

As to the claim liberals have their own examples of people we think are infallible, that is again Coulter showing complete lack of understanding of science, scientific evidence, and the current body of scientific knowledge. So allow me to give you a better idea.

Science is a process, not a set of unchanging facts. It isn't the scientist that creates the knowledge, rather the scientist demonstrates the knowledge with evidence which is repeatable when other scientists test the knowledge using the same and different methods. All scientific knowledge is the best we have today but can always change when new discoveries are made. That is the beauty of it. We are forever increasing our understanding of the Universe. We do not rely on information which was frozen in time a few thousand years ago.

The Bible has the science wrong because it hasn't grown with the increasing body of scientific knowledge that humans have accumulated over those thousands of years.

Investing time and money in the things one believes are important is hardly the definition of a religion.


One of the recent techniques of the Evangelical movement has been, "if you can't beat them, join them". They have tried and failed to come up with scientific evidence supporting their beliefs in the Bible's literacy. The thing about scientific evidence is it is tangible. It is measurable, observable, and demonstrable. Scientific conclusions allow you to make predictions which you can then test to see if your conclusions are correct. If your conclusions are not correct, such as those in the Bible about Creation of the Universe and mankind, then the evidence will not be there. You can't make the evidence be there by wishful thinking and faith.

Since no amount of faith can make evidence where there is none, some of those Evangelicals are now trying, "If you can't join them, claim you have anyway." Thus the newer campaign is to try to equate the scientific process with just another religion, just another set of beliefs. But once again, the difference is measurable, observable, and demonstrable. Scientific conclusions allow you to make predictions which you can then test to see if your conclusions are correct.

If you test the conclusions in the Bible, the evidence will not support those conclusions. Prayer has no measurable effect beyond the social effects of belonging to a group. The claim the Bible was inspired by God cannot be demonstrated since nothing in the Bible indicates anyone writing any of the texts had any more knowledge than would be expected of the authors at the time and place they wrote the texts.

The Bible has all the science wrong. It amounts to the same mythical stories one can find in all the religions those believing the Bible dismiss. Coyote didn't steal fire from heaven any more than a serpent spoke to a woman made from a rib. People evolved over 3.5 billion years. The evidence is in our genes. People didn't come from a God forming them out of dirt or clay any more than they came from extraterrestrials seeding DNA into Earthly lifeforms. There is no evidence the entire planet was ever covered with a Biblical flood and there is no way all the species on the planet were on an Ark during that flood.

Science is not religion. The difference is in the evidence.
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 08/28/2006 :  23:09:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul

In response to Dr. Mabuse and Dave W. questions, Coutler states on page 17 and 18 that Rep. Nancy Pelosi told Democrats they should vote against the Rebublican budget as "an act of worship". Source Joseph Laconte, New York Times, Jan 2 2006. Coulter goes on to say that a former Time magazine White House correspondent [I'm withholding the name but Coulter gives it on page 18] told the Wahington Post in 1998 that she would be happy to give {Clinton oral sex} to thank him for keeping abortion Legal... Also churches don't want their followers to use profanity and according to Coulter liberals are discouraged from using the word abortion.

While I didn't have time to track down this quote you have no source for other than a known bearer of false witness, I did find what the context was the quote likely came from.

quote:
She discusses Dr. King's commitment to social justice and how that vision should be carried out in a moral budget that meets the needs of all Americans. And as Congress prepares to reauthorize the Voting Rights Act, we must to recommit ourselves to Dr. King's vision to protect our fundamental rights.
In other words you have presented the comment completely out of context. Vote your religious convictions by defeating a budget that gives to the excessively rich and leaves the poorest members of our society with nothing. That was the context of the statement. It wasn't anything close to the way you have represented it.

Just who is really Godless here? Those that have bilked taxpayers and book buyers out of millions for their own personal gains or those liberals that volunteer their time and money helping the poorest among us? Maybe you should pray a bit more and look deeper into the souls of those liberal people before you so readily agree with Coulter's Satanic self serving rhetoric.



Edited to add I see there is agreement as to the context of the supposed quote on worship. Of course we would come up with the same context given we looked for supporting evidence to reply to the accusation.

I'm not even going to comment on the BJ nonsense. There is no comparison of the infidelity of Clinton compared to the tens of thousands of children who have died after the Neocon Bush regime needlessly sent American bombs and troops to Iraq under the stupid belief he could make millions for American contractors (his cronies included), create a US oil market with a US model government, and it would be a "piece of cake".
Edited by - beskeptigal on 08/28/2006 23:24:55
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 08/28/2006 :  23:23:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
Wonderfully stated, B! I couldn't have approached that eloquence even if I cared enough about GK's opinion to bother trying. But others are lurking and reading it, and this may help to enlighten some of those who are fence-sitting about the reality of science as simply a method of learning about the world.

You hit the nail on the head when you explained the reason the fundies are now calling science a religion. Since they can't raise the credibility of their beliefs to anything approaching scientific theory, they are now repeating the Big Lie that science is just another superstitious cult no better than they are. They have found that they can't beat science, and by their nature they can't join. So as you point out, they now are forced to claim that science has joined them in competing as a religion. A desperate and transparent lie, doomed to fail.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 08/28/2006 :  23:30:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
Thanks HM. I think we need to approach these religious Republicans with more discussion of what they claim their beliefs are. Peace on Earth, goodwill to men (and women). Is it the good deeds you do, or the fact someone else doesn't believe the same things you believe that really matters? Are you looking at the goal, or getting hung up on the right wing hate speech attacking people who may want the same goals but are approaching the problems differently?
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Starman
SFN Regular

Sweden
1613 Posts

Posted - 08/28/2006 :  23:49:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Starman a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal

Your avatar is annoying, HH.
Well, I find it to be positively charming.
Yea, but we will call you a Michael Bolton fan for as long as you use it!

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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend

USA
306 Posts

Posted - 08/29/2006 :  00:07:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send GK Paul a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul

Kneeling is a sign of reverence in church and apparantly some liberals also kneel when they worship.
So, you're not going to acknowledge that Coulter tried to mislead everyone about the focus of Pelosi's "worship," and you're not going to acknowledge the fact that abortion is discussed all the time using the word "abortion," and you're not going to acknowledge the fact that you can't be bothered to provide evidence in support of your own arguments, but instead you're going to purposefully conflate kneeling in order to felate a man with kneeling in order to pray?

You're in waaaay over your head, kid.

Coulter claims on page 20 that the organization NARAL Pro Choice America purpose is to keep abortion legal. She says the webpage won't use the word abortion and she can't find out what NARAL stands for. I checked the webpage myself and can't find the word abortion.


"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist

"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton


GK Paul
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 08/29/2006 :  00:08:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Starman

quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal

Your avatar is annoying, HH.
Well, I find it to be positively charming.
Yea, but we will call you a Michael Bolton fan for as long as you use it!



My daughter, perusing a topic I'd linked her to, saw that animated avatar and instantly recognized and liked it. (Me, I'd assumed it was some guy beating the crap outta someone else. But it didn't annoy me.)


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend

USA
306 Posts

Posted - 08/29/2006 :  00:25:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send GK Paul a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal

quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul

In response to Dr. Mabuse and Dave W. questions, Coutler states on page 17 and 18 that Rep. Nancy Pelosi told Democrats they should vote against the Rebublican budget as "an act of worship". Source Joseph Laconte, New York Times, Jan 2 2006. Coulter goes on to say that a former Time magazine White House correspondent [I'm withholding the name but Coulter gives it on page 18] told the Wahington Post in 1998 that she would be happy to give {Clinton oral sex} to thank him for keeping abortion Legal... Also churches don't want their followers to use profanity and according to Coulter liberals are discouraged from using the word abortion.

While I didn't have time to track down this quote you have no source for other than a known bearer of false witness, I did find what the context was the quote likely came from.

quote:
She discusses Dr. King's commitment to social justice and how that vision should be carried out in a moral budget that meets the needs of all Americans. And as Congress prepares to reauthorize the Voting Rights Act, we must to recommit ourselves to Dr. King's vision to protect our fundamental rights.
In other words you have presented the comment completely out of context. Vote your religious convictions by defeating a budget that gives to the excessively rich and leaves the poorest members of our society with nothing. That was the context of the statement. It wasn't anything close to the way you have represented it.

Just who is really Godless here? Those that have bilked taxpayers and book buyers out of millions for their own personal gains or those liberals that volunteer their time and money helping the poorest among us? Maybe you should pray a bit more and look deeper into the souls of those liberal people before you so readily agree with Coulter's Satanic self serving rhetoric.



Edited to add I see there is agreement as to the context of the supposed quote on worship. Of course we would come up with the same context given we looked for supporting evidence to reply to the accusation.

I'm not even going to comment on the BJ nonsense. There is no comparison of the infidelity of Clinton compared to the tens of thousands of children who have died after the Neocon Bush regime needlessly sent American bombs and troops to Iraq under the stupid belief he could make millions for American contractors (his cronies included), create a US oil market with a US model government, and it would be a "piece of cake".

You have a link that says "likely" came from, but when I read the speach I didn't find the exact sentence that she used in my post. Maybe it was a different speech.


"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist

"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton


GK Paul
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