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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 09/07/2006 : 14:50:25
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Since he won't start the thread on his own, just thought I would import his erroneous conclusions here and provide him some explanation.
GK Paul said:
http://www.skepticfriends.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6680&whichpage=15#100329
quote:
Coulter states on page 270 that {Ernst Haechel, the creative genius behind the "fake" embryo drawings that were cited as proof of evolution for a century, was an influential German Darwinist. Upon reading "The Origin of Species" Haeckel abadoned his practice as a physician and became a leading proponent of racism and nationalism. He gleefully wrote that Darwinism had overthrown religions "anthropocentric fable" which had falsely elevated man above other species. He called politics "applied biology", a phrase later appropriated by the Nazis.}... (punch in "applied biology" and Nazi on google for more info.
Coulter later states on 270 "With Haechel's encouragement and advice, a Dutch scientist, Bernelot Moen, tried to artificialy inseminate a black women with sperm from a ape." end of quote
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Haeckel
Haeckel was an influential biologist in the 19th century. He coined the terms "ecology" and "phylogeny". His work still impacts the field today.
He was also a proponent of Lamarkian inheritance rather than natural selection as the primary mechanism of evolution.
He also delved into things outside the realm of science, and some of his non-science writings were later used as pseudoscientific justification for nazi racism. But so what? GK Paul's religion has been used as justification for hate, torture, war, and murder. By GK Paul's logic (loosely using the term here) he should shun his religion as evil.
Haeckel made significant contributions to the science of biology, the fact that his words have been taken out of context and used as justification by the nazis does not, in any way, detract from his actual contributions.
As for Bernelot Moen, I can find no reference to any such person in English. Even after running the name, and several spelling variants, through google and wiki.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2006 : 15:11:18 [Permalink]
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| Amd how does either fascist uses of social Darwinism or fascist uses Lamarckian evolution tie into either Liberals or biological "Darwinian" evolution? |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2006 : 15:21:58 [Permalink]
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Come to think of it, I doubt GK Paul knows what Lamarckian evolution or social Darwinism are, and I doubt he'll bother to spend 5 minutes looking them up, so all of this might just be so much babble from his perspective. I know this probably won't change his mind, but what the heck:
From Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamarckian_evolution
"Lamarckism or Lamarckian evolution is a theory put forward by the French biologist Jean-Baptiste Pierre Antoine de Monet, Chevalier de Lamarck, based on heritability of acquired characteristics, the once widely accepted idea that an organism can acquire characteristics during its lifetime and pass them on to its offspring."
And also from Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_darwinism
"Social Darwinism is a term used to describe a range of political ideologies which are held to be compatible with the concept that Charles Darwin's theory of evolution of biological traits in a population by natural selection can also be applied to competition between human societies or groups within a society. Initially expressed in the writings of English philosopher and author Herbert Spencer, and those of William Graham Sumner, Social Darwinism became popular in the late 19th century and continued in popularity until at least the end of World War II. The ideology did not necessarily reflect Darwin's views, and though he did introduce Spencer's term of "survival of the fittest" as an alternative phrase for "natural selection" in the 5th edition of The Origin of Species, he subsequently rejected it in The Descent of Man, and Selection in Relation to Sex (1871). In all cases, the ideology of Social Darwinism should be distinguished from the scientific theory of evolution developed in The Origins of Species (1859)."
It should also be noted that social Darwinism has been used by economic conservatives to justify the social inequality that results from capitalism. Does that mean Libertarians should be associated with Nazis via evolution just like Liberals are by Coulter?
As anyone can plainly see, neither Lamarckian Evolution or Social Darwinism are the same as the biological Theory of Evolution. Bozos like Coulter tend to blend them all together so they can use the falseness or cruelty connected to the former two to bash biological evolution. This only proves her blatent ignorance about evolution and that her political agenda precludes any honest search for the truth about reality.
How can anyone denounce something they don't understand even the basics of? |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2006 : 05:10:27 [Permalink]
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Here's another bit I'd like to bring up from the "Godless" quotes.
Haechel's drawings were oversimplified. He also only had the use of late 19th century scientific tools. While he did champion evolution in Germany, his ideas on race laid the basis for the philosophy of racial purity and eugenics.
Bernelot Moens does not exist. The only one that is close is a Herman Marie (Bernelot) Moens (1875 - 1938) and he's an anthropolgist. He did write a pretty controversial paper in 1920 concerning racial mixture (interbreeding of races/racial purity/eugenics). His field of work was philisophical anthropology. The event eluded to with ape to human insemination has no basis in fact since I can only find Coulter's reference and no one else's. She didn't by any chance footnote this, did she? Or is it just another extremist Christian urban legend?
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2006 : 12:52:03 [Permalink]
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Herman Marie Moens called himself Bernelot Moens, so it is the one closest to GK paul's description. I'll roughly summarize/translate from this page on him: http://www.inghist.nl/Onderzoek/Projecten/BWN/lemmata/bwn4/moens
Moens was educated in Eberswalde in Germany, by Alfred Moller, who was a social darwinist. He became an anthropologist and proposed to test evolution by inseminating a human with a chimp. He persuaded a number of people on the validity of this idea, amongst whom was Haeckel. He even proposed his experiment to the dutch royal house, although in very shrouded terms. He managed to receive money for the experiment from a number of sources, but never enough to actually perform the experiment. His search for funding brought him to the USA.
He was appalled by the racial seperation in the USA, and proposed that eugeniticists should promote interracial marriages to create the 'perfect race' (ie, mixtures between different races). He even created 'dating albums' for this, with many pictures of blacks. Because of his intensive dealings with blacks in the run-on to WWI and his german-like accent, the CIA suspected him of trying to set up the black population against Americans. His guilt could not be proved, so he was released and returned to the Netherlands a number of years later. Here, he warned against a pending racial war because of the appalling feelings of racial superiority of whites. Until his death in 1938 he continued a modest movement against racism, religious strife and nationalism and in favor of tolerance, peace and interracial harmony. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
| Edited by - tomk80 on 09/08/2006 12:52:49 |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2006 : 13:29:30 [Permalink]
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| Thanks Dude. I'm glad someone had the energy/time to start this after the last Coutler book review comments. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2006 : 14:46:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by tomk80
Herman Marie Moens called himself Bernelot Moens, so it is the one closest to GK paul's description. I'll roughly summarize/translate from this page on him: http://www.inghist.nl/Onderzoek/Projecten/BWN/lemmata/bwn4/moens
Moens was educated in Eberswalde in Germany, by Alfred Moller, who was a social darwinist. He became an anthropologist and proposed to test evolution by inseminating a human with a chimp. He persuaded a number of people on the validity of this idea, amongst whom was Haeckel. He even proposed his experiment to the dutch royal house, although in very shrouded terms. He managed to receive money for the experiment from a number of sources, but never enough to actually perform the experiment. His search for funding brought him to the USA.
He was appalled by the racial seperation in the USA, and proposed that eugeniticists should promote interracial marriages to create the 'perfect race' (ie, mixtures between different races). He even created 'dating albums' for this, with many pictures of blacks. Because of his intensive dealings with blacks in the run-on to WWI and his german-like accent, the CIA suspected him of trying to set up the black population against Americans. His guilt could not be proved, so he was released and returned to the Netherlands a number of years later. Here, he warned against a pending racial war because of the appalling feelings of racial superiority of whites. Until his death in 1938 he continued a modest movement against racism, religious strife and nationalism and in favor of tolerance, peace and interracial harmony.
tomk80, there was no CIA at the time of World War I. It was created largely from WWII's American OSS, after that last World War. Are you sure your Dutch source said that?
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2006 : 00:30:30 [Permalink]
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GK Paul said:
quote:
Yes, if you believe in evolution, we evolved from bacteria but evolutionists don't tell you that. They stop at apes.
They do?
Interesting...
Well, how about this simple bit of evidence for common ancestry between bacteria and humans. Glycolysis, the first step in the metabolism of carbohydrates, is found in virtually every living organism. Bacteria and humans included.
It is also a misunderstanding of the concept to say that humans "came from" apes. The idea of common descent means that both apes and humans share a common ancestor that was different from both.
The evidence for common descent between humans, chimps, and the other apes is staggering in its detail and volume. Let me provide some for you:
Human chromosome 2:
Humans have 23 pairs of chromosomes, chimps (and the other apes) have 24. Human chromosome 2 is the fusion of two ancestral chromosomes common to both human and chimp.
Endogenous retroviruses:
Endogenous retroviruses are a particularly powerful evidence for common ancestry between humans and apes. The insertion of these very specific viral DNA sequences, at the same place in the various chromosomes, is extremely compelling.
You should also spend some time reading this:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/
Hopefully you won't spend the rest of your time here just preaching "at" us, and maybe you can learn something.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2006 : 12:42:30 [Permalink]
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A day or two ago, in an unrelated political context, I made some insulting remarks to another forum poster. Dave W. had the good sense to say, "Holy crap!" and point out that my remarks were not justified by the evidence of the other poster's contributions. This prompted me to look over the postings of that person. I did not find any postings that matched my idea of what kind of stuff I thought he'd been writing. (I now believe I'd confused one poster with another.) So I sincerely apologized to the poster I'd insulted, as well as to the other readers.
The point of the above is that we can learn from the kindly comments of others. These comments may be essentially a "holy crap" to get us to re-examine what we'd written, or they may, as in this thread, be a carefully gathered gift of knowledge, put together by many others to help to educate a forum user about some matter on which he or she has demonstrated ignorance.
We all have vast areas of ignorance. There's nothing wrong with that, so long as we are constantly in the process of correcting this ignorance. But there is such a thing as the bone-headed ignorance of the ingrate, when a person will not even acknowledge the laborious and well-intentioned efforts of others to help him learn.
GK Paul, people here are being extraordinarily patient and kind to you. This thread was made especially for you. You really should acknowledge and respond to this thread.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 09/13/2006 12:50:18 |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2006 : 02:43:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
quote:
Originally posted by tomk80
Herman Marie Moens called himself Bernelot Moens, so it is the one closest to GK paul's description. I'll roughly summarize/translate from this page on him: http://www.inghist.nl/Onderzoek/Projecten/BWN/lemmata/bwn4/moens
Moens was educated in Eberswalde in Germany, by Alfred Moller, who was a social darwinist. He became an anthropologist and proposed to test evolution by inseminating a human with a chimp. He persuaded a number of people on the validity of this idea, amongst whom was Haeckel. He even proposed his experiment to the dutch royal house, although in very shrouded terms. He managed to receive money for the experiment from a number of sources, but never enough to actually perform the experiment. His search for funding brought him to the USA.
He was appalled by the racial seperation in the USA, and proposed that eugeniticists should promote interracial marriages to create the 'perfect race' (ie, mixtures between different races). He even created 'dating albums' for this, with many pictures of blacks. Because of his intensive dealings with blacks in the run-on to WWI and his german-like accent, the CIA suspected him of trying to set up the black population against Americans. His guilt could not be proved, so he was released and returned to the Netherlands a number of years later. Here, he warned against a pending racial war because of the appalling feelings of racial superiority of whites. Until his death in 1938 he continued a modest movement against racism, religious strife and nationalism and in favor of tolerance, peace and interracial harmony.
tomk80, there was no CIA at the time of World War I. It was created largely from WWII's American OSS, after that last World War. Are you sure your Dutch source said that?
Ah, my bad. Should have said FBI. CIA, FBI, what's the difference? For a dutchie like me, they're all just the bad guys in the pro-alien movies, and the good guys in the other movies  .
edited to add: And before anyone asks, yes, the term FBI is from 1935, from 1916 is was the Bureau of Investigation. But FBI is what it is nowadays called, so I can imagine that the text (certainly a dutch text) used that term for clarity. The text isn't the most accurate, but it is the most substantial I've found on him. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
| Edited by - tomk80 on 09/14/2006 02:47:26 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2006 : 03:44:35 [Permalink]
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Here is another tasty bit of evidence for common descent, among cats this time.
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/09/cats_candy_and_evolution.php#more
I have given up expecting GK Paul to even read this thread, say nothing of him responding to it, but maybe others will find this as interesting as I do.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2006 : 06:40:38 [Permalink]
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In an effort to generate some interest in this thread, and to rub Creationist noses in one of their sillier arguments, and, yes, to give my ego a litle fluffing, I'm putting up a post I wrote some little while back:
quote:
A couple of days ago, Dr. Mabuse mentioned that he wanted to ask me about the evolution of these in the chat room. I'd missed that chat, for various, bullshit reasons, so I'm posting a sort of hit-the-high-spots in it's place. It's far too big a topic for a chatroom, anyway.
So, with no further ado, come visit my world....
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Question: “Which came first, the chicken or the egg?”
Answer: “Who cares; pass the Tabasco.....”
A similar and equally idiotic question/statement has been snidely put forth about serpent venoms, and it's rather like the ‘half-wing' straw man blather-from-ignorance we hear from various Creationist groups: “Of what use is venom with no injection system, and vise-versa?”
Answer: “Obviously none, therefore it all had to be created at the same time, proving the Theory of Evolution is false, and ha-ha all over you!”
In this screed, I will pass the Tabasco.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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