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wombatwal
New Member
Australia
20 Posts |
 Posted - 09/28/2006 : 19:50:15
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I have for a long time realised how useless it is arguing with Creatonists and people of their ilk.
How can you argue an ever changing science with a non changing belief system, useless.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2006 : 20:10:49 [Permalink]
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Welcome to SFN, Wombat!
Yes, it's nearly useless to try to convince Creationists themselves of the validity of evolution, but in some settings the arguments can at least be used to educate bystanders. For instance, our doomed effort to try to enlighten GK Paul here recently probably got a fair amount of attention from our many lurkers. At minimum, the effort helped us to hone our arguments.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2006 : 20:22:19 [Permalink]
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Welcome again, wombatwal.
Then, there are those of faith that can 'juggle' themselves to separate fact from their own religious beliefs. Yes, they are around, here and there.
But, like you, I've grown tired of debating with fundies over the years. |
"We are all connected; to each other biologically, to the earth chemically, to the rest of the universe atomically."
"So you're made of detritus [from exploded stars]. Get over it. Or better yet, celebrate it. After all, what nobler thought can one cherish than that the universe lives within us all?"
-Neil DeGrasse Tyson |
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wombatwal
New Member
Australia
20 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2006 : 20:33:28 [Permalink]
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Thanks HalfMooner.
Last year our major newspaper in Sydney Australia The Sydney Morning Herald, on their web site the, "blog" section. Did a debate between Skeptics and Creationists/Intelligent Designers on Evolution, Darwin etc.
On the goodies side there were Biologists, Paleontologists etc and on the dark side there were so called I.D. Scientists and people of their ilk.
The debate went over about a week.It became obvious very quickly that arguing science with beliefs was useless and what science the dark side bought up was dodgy (according to the goodies side scientists). The feeling I got from the debate is that the dark side were anti science and what so called science they had was not published in the conventional journals etc but only in their own publications
Yes you are right we can only inform the fence sitters and lurkers. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2006 : 01:40:23 [Permalink]
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From wiki: "[Michael] Shermer was once a fundamentalist Christian, but according to his book The Science of Good and Evil, is now an agnostic and an advocate for humanist philosophy."
Dr. Michael Shermer's Curriculum Vitae
You just never know when your debate might actually convince someone. Besides, sometimes the people you are talking to aren't the only ones listening. You could be preventing someone from falling for the false arguments you hear from Creationists.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2006 : 02:20:50 [Permalink]
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Welcome to SFN, wombatwal!
Y'know, I've been doing this for years and, as far as I can tell, I have yet to convince even a single person. But I suppose I'll keep on doing it -- just call me Sisyphus...
So, how are our friends at Creation Ministries International, formerly Answers in Genesis, Australia, doing? Has the esteemed Dr. Sarfati choked on his own bile yet?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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wombatwal
New Member
Australia
20 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2006 : 03:58:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Welcome to SFN, wombatwal!
Y'know, I've been doing this for years and, as far as I can tell, I have yet to convince even a single person. But I suppose I'll keep on doing it -- just call me Sisyphus...
So, how are our friends at Creation Ministries International, formerly Answers in Genesis, Australia, doing? Has the esteemed Dr. Sarfati choked on his own bile yet?
Ha, ha, haaa
I have subscribed to a short email newsletter from this group, just to see what they are up to 
Dr Sarfati, still there. He does play chess against 12 people at a time, and blidfolded as well. 
Thanks for the welcome Filthy. |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2006 : 04:36:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
From wiki: "[Michael] Shermer was once a fundamentalist Christian, but according to his book The Science of Good and Evil, is now an agnostic and an advocate for humanist philosophy."
Dr. Michael Shermer's Curriculum Vitae
You just never know when your debate might actually convince someone. Besides, sometimes the people you are talking to aren't the only ones listening. You could be preventing someone from falling for the false arguments you hear from Creationists.
And of course there is Dan Barker. Its not easy leaving the consoling embrace of faith. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2006 : 05:17:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by wombatwal
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Welcome to SFN, wombatwal!
Y'know, I've been doing this for years and, as far as I can tell, I have yet to convince even a single person. But I suppose I'll keep on doing it -- just call me Sisyphus...
So, how are our friends at Creation Ministries International, formerly Answers in Genesis, Australia, doing? Has the esteemed Dr. Sarfati choked on his own bile yet?
Ha, ha, haaa
I have subscribed to a short email newsletter from this group, just to see what they are up to
Dr Sarfati, still there. He does play chess against 12 people at a time, and blidfolded as well.
Thanks for the welcome Filthy.
Yes, it is my understanding that he plays at near a Grand Master level, but that's all I can reccommend about him. I went head-on with him on another forum, and his debating style is to go ad hominem the instant he gets a little stuck. I ended up calling him a "jumped-up apothacary" (he holds a PhD in chemestry) and got myself banned. Oh woe...... 
I hope you like it here. These are very good and pretty tough fora.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2006 : 05:18:09 [Permalink]
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Well, they weren't real christians, otherwise they wouldn't have left.
Apparently, when I escaped I wasn't a real chrisitian either. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2006 : 11:41:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Welcome to SFN, wombatwal!
Y'know, I've been doing this for years and, as far as I can tell, I have yet to convince even a single person. But I suppose I'll keep on doing it -- just call me Sisyphus...
So, how are our friends at Creation Ministries International, formerly Answers in Genesis, Australia, doing? Has the esteemed Dr. Sarfati choked on his own bile yet?
Well, I have over the years seen a number of people who eventually gave up creationist beliefs on christianforums. But I must say that on other forums I've seen this much less. Probably because, over there, they see that evolution=/=atheism. If they then are a little critical, they quickly give up arguing for creationism.
However, a large number of them never will. Go to christianforums and look for the posts of AV1611VET. Or go look for them on FSTDT. Basically, the argument goes: the 1611 King James version said it, I believe it, that settles it.
Well no, the argument accurately runs: "I believe the 1611 KJV says it, though I cannot show where it says it when pressed, and that settles it." |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Antigone
New Member
44 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2006 : 12:10:24 [Permalink]
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After almost having a nervous breakdown during a debate with a creationist I vowed to NEVER under any circumstances have a debate or conversation with anyone other than a fellow scientist about evolution and natural selection. However there are times when I cannot resist.
As a general rule I stop the debate/conversation when I feel the veins in my head about to pop ... or when the tunnel vision starts!
What kills me ... what REALLY gets under my skin ... is when they say "its JUST a theory." I have trained my body to not react to this anymore though. When I hear that sentence it is a cue to me that this person is NOT a scientist or even knowledgeable in basic scientific methods and terms. It is at that point I refer them to a text book. I refuse to do the job of our high school teachers in chatrooms and/or message boards!
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Mortui non dolent |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2006 : 12:43:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Antigone
After almost having a nervous breakdown during a debate with a creationist I vowed to NEVER under any circumstances have a debate or conversation with anyone other than a fellow scientist about evolution and natural selection. However there are times when I cannot resist.
As a general rule I stop the debate/conversation when I feel the veins in my head about to pop ... or when the tunnel vision starts!
What kills me ... what REALLY gets under my skin ... is when they say "its JUST a theory." I have trained my body to not react to this anymore though. When I hear that sentence it is a cue to me that this person is NOT a scientist or even knowledgeable in basic scientific methods and terms. It is at that point I refer them to a text book. I refuse to do the job of our high school teachers in chatrooms and/or message boards!
To which you might reply, "If, with all of the evidence backing it, evolution is just a theory, what then is creationism with virtually no empirical evidence in it's support whatsoever?"
Then you send them off to TalkOrigins and tell them to learn something of what they are talking about. They won't go, of course, They almost never do, so then you can accuse them of willful ignorance bordering upon illiteratcy, and bury them in TO's excellent articles and references.
Work it just right and you can tweak the insanity gene of any creationist (except verlch, but he's a special case). It worked great on Sarfati, who, with spit on his chin, railed at TO and called it "the biggest garbage site in the web!"
In short, as long you don't let them get to you; don't take them all that seriously, then it can be a worth a few chuckles.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Antigone
New Member
44 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2006 : 13:30:26 [Permalink]
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lmao. thanks Filthy!
Its not them I let get under my skin. Its the lack of basic knowledge about science, the scientific method, and the terms involved. This is stuff even middle schoolers should know, but even those graduating from HS don't know it.
The college I went to in 2000-2003 hired me as a tutor for math, english/writing, and biology. I always knew the education system in this country was horrid before this experience, but I didn't know just how neglectful and down-right criminal (most of) it was. (I am not saying all teachers are bad, so please don't take this personal if you are one of the few really good teachers out there.) There were kids (just out of high school) who didn't know how to factor equations for their algebra class...
And don't get me started on proportions...or C^2 = A^2 + B^2
As for English/Grammar, even worse. These kids just didn't get the education they deserved or needed, and they weren't the 'kids who just don't listen or pay attention' either. And only a small number of them had a LD. Most understood with a few weeks or months of direction.
Then I learned that my brother, who graduated high school, couldn't even read! He is dyslexic ... he didn't find this out during his time in the Boston School System, he found out after his wife begged him to find out why he couldn't read (when he was 27!)
How in the world did this happen? How did this man graduate 8th grade never mind high school? How did those kids I tutored not know basic math and grammar and STILL graduate high school?
I do not get frustrated by the non-educated, I get frustrated because in such a "great country" most HS graduates don't have the tools they need to make it in college.
So when I see someone say something is "just a theory" (as if that is a bad thing in science) or that something in science can be 'proven true' ... and with just one source of data at that ... it confirms just how much our education system sucks.
I used to say I was unlucky because I quit HS at 15 and never got to have a diploma, never took my SATs, and could never get into a good university. But now I know how lucky I am. I quit HS, but within a year I got my GED and went to UMass. I had a father who pushed education on me and made me hunger for knowledge. |
Mortui non dolent |
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wombatwal
New Member
Australia
20 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2006 : 15:21:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by moakley
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
From wiki: "[Michael] Shermer was once a fundamentalist Christian, but according to his book The Science of Good and Evil, is now an agnostic and an advocate for humanist philosophy."
Dr. Michael Shermer's Curriculum Vitae
You just never know when your debate might actually convince someone. Besides, sometimes the people you are talking to aren't the only ones listening. You could be preventing someone from falling for the false arguments you hear from Creationists.
And of course there is Dan Barker. Its not easy leaving the consoling embrace of faith.
Thanks Moakley, that pieced on Dan Barker was very interesting.
What does annoy me is that some skeptics/atheists can be as dogmatic and dismissive as the committed religious types. What I have read from Dan Barker he seems to have the right attitude to further the "freethinking" cause. |
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