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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
 Posted - 09/11/2006 : 05:29:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul...
Were getting into the God can't make a rock so heavy that He can't lift it realm which borders on absurdity. If you want to go in that direction go ahead but I'm not.
A predictably common tactic for you, GK Paul. When the discussion gets to demonstrating clearly that your god is absurd, you jump the track. But you've already acknowledged your belief that your god is for weak, unintelligent people, so your unwillingness (or inability) to be strong or intelligent in a discussion about it isn't the least bit surprising.
quote:
The road to heaven is straight and narrow. The road to destruction is wide and crooked. You choose the road to go and God in his wisdom can "choose" not to know which road you will choose.
Yet somehow you seem to know what one must do or how one must act in order to avoid being damned to eternal torture by your all loving, all forgiving, all powerful bogeyman. Wouldn't you agree that what you've just expressed is the pinnacle of arrogance and hypocrisy?
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2006 : 05:34:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Chippewa said:
quote:
Karel Capek, the writer who also introduced the word "robot" – has a short story, "The Last Judgment", which addresses this. In it a criminal dies and in Heaven faces a democratic judgment of his peers rather than God. (Since God knows all, he cannot judge anything.)
The existance of an omnipotent being would still negate the meaning of any such judgement.
God could divinely choose not to know how one of his creations would act in the future. Were getting into the God can't make a rock so heavy that He can't lift it realm which borders on absurdity. If you want to go in that direction go ahead but I'm not.
The road to heaven is straight and narrow. The road to destruction is wide and crooked. You choose the road to go and God in his wisdom can "choose" not to know which road you will choose.
God could devinely choose not to know something?? Now that is an absurdity and employs a definition of omnisciences I'm not familiar with. Are you just making this up?? Your God is either omniscient or not omniscient. If omniscient, then the best that you can claim is the illusion of free will.
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
quote:
Originally posted by moakley
At what point was that man/woman gained free will. At the point that they knew the difference between right and wrong. At what point did they learn this, in the Garden of Eden (inagoddadavida) when they ate from the tree of knowledge. Who convinced Eve, in turn Adam, to eat the fruit of the tree. Looks like God should not be given credit for free will. You don't think?
Satanists must believe in the Bible, because that's where we first hear that the angel Lucifer was created by God. God "gave" Lucifer the free will to reject his creator God. God could have destroyed him immediately if He wished, but God didn't because than it wouldn't have been free will. But God still has the power to punish Lucifer/Satan and those that are deceived into following Lucifer/Satan.
I'm not here to convince people I'm just here to warn people. Whether or not me or other Christians die for our cause doesn't matter because God's going to do what He says He going to do in Revelation one way or another and its not pretty for Satan and his followers. But God gives each soul a certain period of time to choose sides; and each soul is going to have to live with the consequences of that decision.
You have already been asked for a passage in the bible where it says that God gave Lucifer free will. I would also request that you identify the passage where it states what the period of time is for a choice to be made.
This is the problem with religion, it only works when you keep the fables and assertions isolated from one another. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2006 : 07:38:41 [Permalink]
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All Things Dull And Ugly
from Monty Python's Contractual Obligations Album
All things dull and ugly,
All creatures, short and squat,
All things rude and nasty,
The Lord God made the lot.
Each little snake that poisons,
Each little wasp that stings,
He made their brutish venom,
He made their horrid wings.
All things sick and cancerous,
All evil great and small,
All things foul and dangerous,
The Lord God made them all.
Each nasty little hornet,
Each beastly little squid,
Who made the spiky urchin?
Who made the sharks? He did!
All things scabbed and ulcerous,
All pox both great and small,
Putrid, foul and gangrenous,
The Lord God made them all.
Amen
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2006 : 09:07:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
Thomas Jefferson said "we hold these truths self evident". GK Paul holds the above universal truth self evident. I'm sure Jefferson didn't present evidence to the king for the life, liberty, and the pursuit of happinesss truths.
There is, of course, quite a large difference between self-evident rights of people mentioned in a rhetorical flouish and your claim of a universal law created by God.
Plus, kid, you ain't no Jefferson, nor are you arguing for your independence from tyranny. If we were tyrannical, you wouldn't be allowed to post here. To further break your attempted analogy, it seems doubtful that the King would have argued that life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness (as abstract concepts) were not inalienable rights.
So, this allegedly "universal law" is most certainly not self-evident. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2006 : 09:34:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
It's just a universal law that God has made for your long term best interest and the best interest of humanity as a whole.
Got any evidence of that?
Thomas Jefferson said "we hold these truths self evident". GK Paul holds the above universal truth self evident. I'm sure Jefferson didn't present evidence to the king for the life, liberty, and the pursuit of happinesss truths.
Thomas Jefferson did not say these words. He wrote the opinion of a committee to a monarch for a redress of grievances. In this, the committee believed that the King of England had abused these three basic freedoms of loyal subjects.
This was politics. Politics and truth rarely share the same room.
This is still not evidence of a universal law put down by a deity.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2006 : 10:38:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by moakley
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Chippewa said:
quote:
Karel Capek, the writer who also introduced the word "robot" – has a short story, "The Last Judgment", which addresses this. In it a criminal dies and in Heaven faces a democratic judgment of his peers rather than God. (Since God knows all, he cannot judge anything.)
The existance of an omnipotent being would still negate the meaning of any such judgement.
God could divinely choose not to know how one of his creations would act in the future. Were getting into the God can't make a rock so heavy that He can't lift it realm which borders on absurdity. If you want to go in that direction go ahead but I'm not.
The road to heaven is straight and narrow. The road to destruction is wide and crooked. You choose the road to go and God in his wisdom can "choose" not to know which road you will choose.
God could devinely choose not to know something?? Now that is an absurdity and employs a definition of omnisciences I'm not familiar with. Are you just making this up?? Your God is either omniscient or not omniscient. If omniscient, then the best that you can claim is the illusion of free will.
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
quote:
Originally posted by moakley
At what point was that man/woman gained free will. At the point that they knew the difference between right and wrong. At what point did they learn this, in the Garden of Eden (inagoddadavida) when they ate from the tree of knowledge. Who convinced Eve, in turn Adam, to eat the fruit of the tree. Looks like God should not be given credit for free will. You don't think?
Satanists must believe in the Bible, because that's where we first hear that the angel Lucifer was created by God. God "gave" Lucifer the free will to reject his creator God. God could have destroyed him immediately if He wished, but God didn't because than it wouldn't have been free will. But God still has the power to punish Lucifer/Satan and those that are deceived into following Lucifer/Satan.
I'm not here to convince people I'm just here to warn people. Whether or not me or other Christians die for our cause doesn't matter because God's going to do what He says He going to do in Revelation one way or another and its not pretty for Satan and his followers. But God gives each soul a certain period of time to choose sides; and each soul is going to have to live with the consequences of that decision.
You have already been asked for a passage in the bible where it says that God gave Lucifer free will. I would also request that you identify the passage where it states what the period of time is for a choice to be made.
This is the problem with religion, it only works when you keep the fables and assertions isolated from one another.
No, I'm not making it up. Your putting God in a cookie cutter box. God is more dynamic than anything you or I could imagine. Its all over the bible, how God chooses not to remember our sins when we ask for forgiveness. If God can choose not to remember our sins He can certainly choose not to know our future. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2006 : 11:12:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
No, I'm not making it up. Your putting God in a cookie cutter box. God is more dynamic than anything you or I could imagine. Its all over the bible, how God chooses not to remember our sins when we ask for forgiveness. If God can choose not to remember our sins He can certainly choose not to know our future.
Yeah, but GK, why should god 'decide' not to remember? That makes no sense.
It is true that we commit acts that we would prefer to forget, all of them misdeeds of ours or others. Unfortunatly, the only ways we can actually blot them from our memories is either getting hit on the head or going crazy. So, as it seems unlikely that someone clobbered the deity with an axe helve, is he/she crazy? Or just playing silly games?
That's all pure apologetics, ie: reachin' for it. Admittedly, some of the Bible stories nicely describe a genocidal maniac, but, as I recall, it says nothing about that maniac being willfully absent-minded.
We need to do better than this.
Here's something that might be of intrest: quote:
Scientists at the California-based Reasons to Believe ministry announced that after 20 years of research, they have developed a creation model based on scientific methods.
The founder and president of the science/faith think-tank ministry, Dr. Hugh Ross, said he and his team of scientists have developed a creation model that is not only compatible with science but successfully predicts scientific discoveries based on testable methods.
Over at AiG, by the bye, they hate Hugh Ross. Should be interesting to see exactly what his creation model is.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2006 : 11:41:24 [Permalink]
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| To Filthy, We have a difference of opinion. I believe it makes sense for God to choose not to remember the sins of those who sincerely ask for forgiveness. Sin is repulsive to God. Why would He want to remember it after you ask for forgiveness. Your slate is wiped clean, when you sincerely ask for forgiveness. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
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leoofno
Skeptic Friend
USA
346 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2006 : 12:06:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
To Filthy, We have a difference of opinion. I believe it makes sense for God to choose not to remember the sins of those who sincerely ask for forgiveness. Sin is repulsive to God. Why would He want to remember it after you ask for forgiveness. Your slate is wiped clean, when you sincerely ask for forgiveness.
Just for my own education, where does the Bible say that God actually forgets that we sinned? I don't remember anyone putting it quite that way before.
I should search before I post. Found this on gotquestions.org:
"The Bible says that when God forgives us, 'He remembers our sins no more' (Jeremiah 31:34). This does not mean that the all-knowing God forgets because He forgives us. Rather, He chooses not to bring up our sin to Himself or others."
I guess this commentator believes that an all-knowing God can't not know something. So he assumes that He means that He just won't bring it up. Are you saying that an all-knowing God CAN forget something? |
"If you're not terrified, you're not paying attention." Eric Alterman
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| Edited by - leoofno on 09/11/2006 12:17:20 |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2006 : 12:29:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
To Filthy, We have a difference of opinion. I believe it makes sense for God to choose not to remember the sins of those who sincerely ask for forgiveness. Sin is repulsive to God. Why would He want to remember it after you ask for forgiveness. Your slate is wiped clean, when you sincerely ask for forgiveness.
Why would he want to forget it. Do you actually think that God is too weak to give people forgiveness while remembering their sins? Do you actually mean that God is too weak to be able to overcome his repulsiveness to sin? Do you not think that God would be wise enough to accept a person with his sins, after this person has sincerely asked for forgiveness? You are painting a God that is more childish than a toddler. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2006 : 13:18:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
To Filthy, We have a difference of opinion. I believe it makes sense for God to choose not to remember the sins of those who sincerely ask for forgiveness. Sin is repulsive to God. Why would He want to remember it after you ask for forgiveness. Your slate is wiped clean, when you sincerely ask for forgiveness.
In my experience, religions do not like private opinions; not even those that support them if they ate not solidly based on whatever scripture is pertenant. Of course, this varies with the sect. And the translation.
I find it difficult to fathom why a deity would give himself the equivilent of numerous, vollentary lobotomies for some large numbers repentant sinners; most of whom would probably not get invited to the best parties, anyway.
I find it even harder to swallow that, in the vastness of the universe, a god -- any gods or their female counterparts -- would worry about the behavior of a single primate species on a miniscule planet in a minor solar system, in some nondescript galaxy different from billions of others only in location. But, I suppose that's a topic best left for another thread.....
In any event, I think that the "forget" verse in Jeremiah simply means like: "Don't worry about it," rather as if your neighbor runs over your cat. You're pissed but what the hell? It's only a stupid cat, and he wishes he hadn't done it, so you tell him to "forget it, I have."
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2006 : 14:53:56 [Permalink]
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First, GK Paul, you have not responded to a single one of my posts. It cannot be because of my tone since you have replied to others here who you have also accused of being too harsh. What's the deal?
Second, you wrote: quote:
GThomas Jefferson said "we hold these truths self evident". GK Paul holds the above universal truth self evident. I'm sure Jefferson didn't present evidence to the king for the life, liberty, and the pursuit of happinesss truths.
You were asked for evidence and you quote a politician? A politician who held slaves, knowing that holding slaves went against the very human rights he demanded from England? How does that give clout to what you claim? Can I just claim it is self-evident that Muhammad is God's true prophet? Politicians use such language for obvious reasons - the same reason Bush used the phrase "axis of evil". Of course countries and leaders aren't in-of-themselves "evil". But it creates strong emphasis, and when you are playing politics you must be persuasive. Obviously Jefferson's human right weren't self-evident because they were invented by human beings in the Western world during the Englightenement.
Think about the theology that you are beginning to present here - it is as complicated and counter-intuitive as Greek mythology. And yet you claim it to be self-evident absolute Truth. Mull that over trying to be objective for about 3 seconds and you'll understand why people here are making fun of you.
(Edit - the above sentences in bold originally read "How is that evidence.") |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 09/11/2006 14:56:11 |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2006 : 15:20:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GeeMack
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul...
Were getting into the God can't make a rock so heavy that He can't lift it realm which borders on absurdity. If you want to go in that direction go ahead but I'm not.
A predictably common tactic for you, GK Paul. When the discussion gets to demonstrating clearly that your god is absurd, you jump the track. But you've already acknowledged your belief that your god is for weak, unintelligent people, so your unwillingness (or inability) to be strong or intelligent in a discussion about it isn't the least bit surprising.
quote:
The road to heaven is straight and narrow. The road to destruction is wide and crooked. You choose the road to go and God in his wisdom can "choose" not to know which road you will choose.
Yet somehow you seem to know what one must do or how one must act in order to avoid being damned to eternal torture by your all loving, all forgiving, all powerful bogeyman. Wouldn't you agree that what you've just expressed is the pinnacle of arrogance and hypocrisy?
I haven't jumped the track. I'm still here, and if I don't come in for awhile its because I do have a life outside of this web site.
I've anwered the question about predestination. There was also one about we didn't choose to be created. Well that is true, and if you believe in evolution than we didn't choose to be evolved from bacteria. Yes, if you believe in evolution, we evolved from bacteria but evolutionists don't tell you that. They stop at apes.
I thank God for creating me. If someone hates the fact that they were born and rejects God that's their right. I'm sure God takes all the circumstances into consideration when He passes the final judgement. And God even changed His mind one time when one of His creations pleaded with Him. So when you stand before Him you can plead your case, and I'm sure you will get the judgement you deserve. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2006 : 15:26:55 [Permalink]
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by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2006 : 15:33:17 [Permalink]
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GKPaul said:
quote:
God could divinely choose not to know how one of his creations
would act in the future.
Then god is no longer omnipotent.
If there is a single thing that your god does not know, then you cannot describe it as omnipotent.
And what is the point of worshiping a non-omnipotent being? And if any non-omnipotent being demands worship, how is that different from tyranny/violation of your free will?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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