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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
 Posted - 09/11/2006 : 15:39:33 [Permalink]
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To Moakley, I've done a little research on the subject of Lucifer since my last post on him. Lucifer in Isaiah is figurative speech for the king of Babylon. The passage was actually mocking the king as a star that had fallen. He was so powerful in his day (a bright star) and ended up (from memory) in the pit hell on a bed of worms and a sheet of maggots.
Since the Lucifer term is referring to the king of Babylon (which by the way could be said of Saddam Hussein a few ago) and since the king of Babylon was a human being than obviously he had free will; since he was a human created by God. Unless you are a evolutionist and than the king evolved from bacteria. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
| Edited by - GK Paul on 09/11/2006 15:41:47 |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2006 : 15:44:51 [Permalink]
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I'm glad YOU did a little research on it...
Perhaps you have me on ignore?
Oh well...
FWIW, the king DID evolve from an itty bitty bacteria. So what? You saying your god couldn't have done that? I guess so, seeing how it is not omnipotent by your own definition...
Perhaps Genesis was figurative also? Perhaps Revelation? Seems you didn't think Isiah was until YOU researched. Maybe you should do some more research. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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| Edited by - pleco on 09/11/2006 15:49:18 |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2006 : 15:51:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by tomk80
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
To Filthy, We have a difference of opinion. I believe it makes sense for God to choose not to remember the sins of those who sincerely ask for forgiveness. Sin is repulsive to God. Why would He want to remember it after you ask for forgiveness. Your slate is wiped clean, when you sincerely ask for forgiveness.
Why would he want to forget it. Do you actually think that God is too weak to give people forgiveness while remembering their sins? Do you actually mean that God is too weak to be able to overcome his repulsiveness to sin? Do you not think that God would be wise enough to accept a person with his sins, after this person has sincerely asked for forgiveness? You are painting a God that is more childish than a toddler.
That's what the bible says. He does not remember our sins when we ask for forgiveness. If you don't like the mind of God you'll have to take that up with Him on judgement day. And if you don't believe in a judgement day than you have the free will not to believe. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2006 : 16:03:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by pleco
I'm glad YOU did a little research on it...
Perhaps you have me on ignore?
Oh well...
FWIW, the king DID evolve from an itty bitty bacteria. So what? You saying your god couldn't have done that? I guess so, seeing how it is not omnipotent by your own definition...
Perhaps Genesis was figurative also? Perhaps Revelation? Seems you didn't think Isiah was until YOU researched. Maybe you should do some more research.
And you believe the "living" bacteria was created by "nonliving" chemicals. I believe that takes greater faith than Christianity does. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2006 : 16:09:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
And you believe the "living" bacteria was created by "nonliving" chemicals. I believe that takes greater faith than Christianity does.
I for one do not know how it happemed, but it doesn't seem that improbable given the conditions likely present in the planet's early history.
Why do you have such a problem with this concept? |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2006 : 16:28:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
And you believe the "living" bacteria was created by "nonliving" chemicals. I believe that takes greater faith than Christianity does.
You know what happens when you assume.
But you stated something about evolving from bacteria, not where they came from. Always shifting those goalposts when you need to, right?
FWIW, I don't believe that. My answer to that is "I don't know." That's called intellectual honesty. Try it sometime.
Did you change your mind about who/what Lucifer really is, and not what your Youth Pastor or Chick Tract told you? |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2006 : 16:38:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
I haven't jumped the track. I'm still here, and if I don't come in for awhile its because I do have a life outside of this web site.
You misunderstand. Jump the track means you avoid answering the difficult question and change the subject.
quote:
Well that is true, and if you believe in evolution than we didn't choose to be evolved from bacteria.
Skeptics and scientists does not "believe" in evolution, just saying to shows you know Jack Shit about evolution and science. You have a lot to learn about evolution before you are entitled to criticise it.
Just because you claimed to have been an atheist before you found God does not give you a free pass among us, and it certainly does not indicate that you have any knowledge.
quote:
Yes, if you believe in evolution, we evolved from bacteria but evolutionists don't tell you that. They stop at apes.
Aside from the "belief" thing, can you elaborate?
quote:
I thank God for creating me. If someone hates the fact that they were born and rejects God that's their right.
I think you are projecting.
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I'm sure God takes all the circumstances into consideration when He passes the final judgement.
Good, that means I'll be saved, because I've done the best I can considering the circumstances.
quote:
And God even changed His mind one time when one of His creations pleaded with Him.
Ok, so He's a flip-flopper... 
quote:
So when you stand before Him you can plead your case, and I'm sure you will get the judgement you deserve.
I'm counting on it. If I ever get to stand before Him. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2006 : 16:45:22 [Permalink]
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It seems that GK Paul is getting the benefit of the doubt, and he/she really shouldn't.
So, shouldn't we backup and start with:
GK Paul, prove that a god (any god) exists.
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by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2006 : 16:58:08 [Permalink]
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Lies, damned lies, statistics. and the probility of abiogenesis calculations. quote:
Introduction
Every so often, someone comes up with the statement "the formation of any enzyme by chance is nearly impossible, therefore abiogenesis is impossible". Often they cite an impressive looking calculation from the astrophysicist Fred Hoyle, or trot out something called "Borel's Law" to prove that life is statistically impossible. These people, including Fred, have committed one or more of the following errors.
Glossary
Acyl transferase:
An enzyme or ribozyme that synthesizes peptides.
Ligase:
An enzyme or ribozyme that adds a monomer to a polymer, or links two shorter polymers together.
Monomer:
Any single subunit of a polymer. An amino acid is a monomer of a peptide or protein, a nucleotide is a monomer of an oligonucleotide or polynucleotide.
Nucleotide:
Adenine, Guanine, Cytosine and Uracil. These are the monomers that make up oligo- or polynucleotides such as RNA.
Oligonucleotide:
A short polymer of nucleotide subunits.
Polymerase:
A enzyme or ribozyme that makes a polymer out of monomers. For example, RNA polymerase makes RNA out of single nucleotides.
Ribozyme:
A biological catalyst made from RNA.
Self-replicator:
A molecule which can make an identical or near-identical copy of itself from smaller subunits. At least four self-replicators are known.
Problems with the creationists' "it's so improbable" calculations
1) They calculate the probability of the formation of a "modern" protein, or even a complete bacterium with all "modern" proteins, by random events. This is not the abiogenesis theory at all.
2) They assume that there is a fixed number of proteins, with fixed sequences for each protein, that are required for life.
3) They calculate the probability of sequential trials, rather than simultaneous trials.
4) They misunderstand what is meant by a probability calculation.
5) They seriously underestimate the number of functional enzymes/ribozymes present in a group of random sequences.
I will try and walk people through these various errors, and show why it is not possible to do a "probability of abiogenesis" calculation in any meaningful way.
GK, if you must take us off into abiogenesis, you need to know at least a little of what you're talking about. The above site will help.
And here is a brief history if it which you might find interesting. quote:
This article focuses on the history of the theory of abiogenesis (the spontaneous generation of life from non-living sources). For abiogenesis as a scientific study, see main article, Origin of life
Abiogenesis (Greek a-bio-genesis, "non biological origins") is, in its most general sense, the generation of life from non-living matter. Today the term is primarily used to refer to theories about the chemical origin of life, such as from a primordial sea, and most probably through a number of intermediate steps, such as non-living but self-replicating molecules (biopoiesis).
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2006 : 17:43:05 [Permalink]
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GK Paul said:
quote:
And you believe the "living" bacteria was created by "nonliving" chemicals. I believe that takes greater faith than Christianity does.
The sheer ignorance contained within that statement is staggering to behold.
Looks like I am gonna have to start an abiogenesis thread for you.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2006 : 18:49:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
quote:
Originally posted by moakley
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Chippewa said:
quote:
Karel Capek, the writer who also introduced the word "robot" – has a short story, "The Last Judgment", which addresses this. In it a criminal dies and in Heaven faces a democratic judgment of his peers rather than God. (Since God knows all, he cannot judge anything.)
The existance of an omnipotent being would still negate the meaning of any such judgement.
God could divinely choose not to know how one of his creations would act in the future. Were getting into the God can't make a rock so heavy that He can't lift it realm which borders on absurdity. If you want to go in that direction go ahead but I'm not.
The road to heaven is straight and narrow. The road to destruction is wide and crooked. You choose the road to go and God in his wisdom can "choose" not to know which road you will choose.
God could devinely choose not to know something?? Now that is an absurdity and employs a definition of omnisciences I'm not familiar with. Are you just making this up?? Your God is either omniscient or not omniscient. If omniscient, then the best that you can claim is the illusion of free will.
No, I'm not making it up. Your putting God in a cookie cutter box. God is more dynamic than anything you or I could imagine. Its all over the bible, how God chooses not to remember our sins when we ask for forgiveness. If God can choose not to remember our sins He can certainly choose not to know our future.
So you contend that your God is without definite character or nature. That we lack the imagination to truly know your God. And yet you attribute so much to your God without really knowing, and having no way to know with any degree of certainty. When dougts are raise you define your God in order to make it unassailable.
And now your God can choose not to know things. I wonder how it decides? What is your working definition of omnisciences? |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2006 : 18:53:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
To Moakley, I've done a little research on the subject of Lucifer since my last post on him. Lucifer in Isaiah is figurative speech for the king of Babylon. The passage was actually mocking the king as a star that had fallen. He was so powerful in his day (a bright star) and ended up (from memory) in the pit hell on a bed of worms and a sheet of maggots.
Since the Lucifer term is referring to the king of Babylon (which by the way could be said of Saddam Hussein a few ago) and since the king of Babylon was a human being than obviously he had free will; since he was a human created by God. Unless you are a evolutionist and than the king evolved from bacteria.
Now the next thing would be to provide a link for your source. I found something saying similar things about Lucifer over at wiki. I do not know if it was your source or not. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2006 : 00:05:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
...He was so powerful in his day (a bright star) and ended up (from memory) in the pit hell on a bed of worms and a sheet of maggots...
More vile behavior from GK Paul's bizarre so-called loving God. |
Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2006 : 07:50:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Chippewa
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
...He was so powerful in his day (a bright star) and ended up (from memory) in the pit hell on a bed of worms and a sheet of maggots...
More vile behavior from GK Paul's bizarre so-called loving God.
Chtulhu couldn't have done better. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2006 : 11:45:52 [Permalink]
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GK Paul wrote: quote:
Yes, if you believe in evolution, we evolved from bacteria but evolutionists don't tell you that. They stop at apes.
As Mabuse said: “You have a lot to learn about evolution before you are entitled to criticise it.” I have studied evolution in college and on my own quite a bit, and evolutionists most certainly do talk about human evolving from organisms other than apes, all the way down to the simplest of microbes. Scientists who specialize in human evolution (Physical Anthropology) pretty much stop at apes because they are dealing with a narrow set of information in order to be able to go deeper into that specific area.
GK Paul wrote: quote:
And if you don't believe in a judgement day than you have the free will not to believe.
I've heard this before, but it is such a silly claim. People cannot choose to believe one thing or another. People believe what seems evident given their perspective. I could no more choose to believe in Christianity than I could choose to believe in Zeus, Reincarnation, or Santa Claus. GK Paul, can you just choose to believe whatever you want?
GK Paul wrote: quote:
And you believe the "living" bacteria was created by "nonliving" chemicals. I believe that takes greater faith than Christianity does.
Oh, geez, are you serious? Obviously you've never bothered to look into and contemplate the definition of “alive” in the biological sense. Viruses are the classic example, having traits of both living and non-living things. And see Filthy's post on abiogenesis.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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