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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4954 Posts

Posted - 10/03/2006 :  13:48:25  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message
This is a continution of this thread.

Have at it.

GK Paul
Skeptic Friend

USA
306 Posts

Posted - 10/05/2006 :  04:36:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send GK Paul a Private Message
Well there is much more evidence for the existence of Jesus than there is for something called primordial energy (that doesn't exist now) but is theorized to have existed 14 billion years ago. You want evidence for God but you don't want evidence for primordial energy. And the fact that the laws of physics don't explain how this theorized big bang happened doesn't seem to bother anyone. Some people are a stickler for irrefutable evidence when it comes to religion but loosey goosey when it comes to the Big Bang Theory.


"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist

"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton


GK Paul
Edited by - GK Paul on 10/05/2006 04:50:50
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Starman
SFN Regular

Sweden
1613 Posts

Posted - 10/05/2006 :  05:03:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Starman a Private Message
quote:
GK Paul claimed

Well there is much more evidence for the existence of Jesus than there is for something called primordial energy
Well, we covered the evidence for the existence of Jesus in the last thread.
(Summary: No independent evidence.)

Maybe you would like to inform us of how much evidence for primordial energy you believe there is?
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leoofno
Skeptic Friend

USA
346 Posts

Posted - 10/05/2006 :  05:41:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send leoofno a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul

Well there is much more evidence for the existence of Jesus than there is for something called primordial energy (that doesn't exist now) but is theorized to have existed 14 billion years ago. You want evidence for God but you don't want evidence for primordial energy. And the fact that the laws of physics don't explain how this theorized big bang happened doesn't seem to bother anyone. Some people are a stickler for irrefutable evidence when it comes to religion but loosey goosey when it comes to the Big Bang Theory.


A theory to explain something has little or nothing to do with evidence that the "something" exists. Take gravity. That there is plenty of evidence for its existence is disputed by no one. A theory to explain it? Well......

Evolution is much the same way with plenty of evidence that life has changed over time. This was recognized almost as soon as naturalists realized that fossils were the remains of ancient life. The theory didn't come along till the 1800's. Since then it has been refined to the point that no scientist without a religious axe to grind doubts its validity.

Where's the evidence for God? Something thats concrete, repeatable. God doesn't work that way? Neither does the tooth fairy.

"If you're not terrified, you're not paying attention." Eric Alterman
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25975 Posts

Posted - 10/05/2006 :  08:11:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul

Well there is much more evidence for the existence of Jesus than there is for something called primordial energy (that doesn't exist now) but is theorized to have existed 14 billion years ago. You want evidence for God but you don't want evidence for primordial energy. And the fact that the laws of physics don't explain how this theorized big bang happened doesn't seem to bother anyone. Some people are a stickler for irrefutable evidence when it comes to religion but loosey goosey when it comes to the Big Bang Theory.
Actually, you're just showing how much you don't know about the current state of Big Bang theory, just like you showed off how much you don't know about Coulter, Hitler, evolution, etc.. Your ignorance of these topics isn't particularly surprising, since most people don't know a whole lot about them. What's surprising is your willingness to try to capitalize on your ignorance by pontificating about what you think are "facts." It's your lack of humility in the face of what Jesus taught that is simply incredible.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 10/05/2006 :  08:53:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
GK Paul, I've spoken with Jesuits who could make this hard-headed skeptic's head spin and ache as they propounded their nonsense. The Jesuits were especially good at using logic -- it was missing only in key areas, and this lack was well-disguised. Jesuits are highly trained in apologetics.

But over and over here (as in your willfully ignorant, hand-waving dismissal of the Big Bang), you are using the worst kind of vulgar logical fallacies in your arguments, particularly "argument from ignorance" and "argument from personal incredulity."

(I won't even delve here into your repeated but dishonored promises to define and give evidence for your Trinity.)

From Wiki:
quote:
Argument from ignorance

The two most common forms of the argument from ignorance, both fallacious, can be reduced to the following form:

* Something is currently unexplained or insufficiently explained, so it was not (or could not be) true.
* Because there appears to be a lack of evidence for one hypothesis, another chosen hypothesis is therefore considered proven.

An adage regarding this fallacy from the philosophy of science is that "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence": not having evidence for something is not proof that something is not or cannot be true. Similarly, merely not having evidence for a particular proposition is not proof that an alternative proposition is instead the case--it is in fact simply lack of evidence, and nothing more.
[edit]

Argument from personal incredulity

Two common versions of the argument from personal incredulity are:

* "I can't believe this is possible, so it can't be true" (The person is asserting that a proposition must be wrong because he or she is (or claims to be) unable or unwilling to fully consider that it might be true, or is unwilling to believe evidence which does not support her or his preferred view.)
* "That's not what people say about this; people instead agree with what I am saying." (Here the person is asserting that a proposition must be inaccurate because the opinion of "people in general" is claimed to agree with the speaker's opinion, without offering specific evidence in support of the alternative view.)
Now, please work on your skills at apologetics!


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend

USA
306 Posts

Posted - 10/05/2006 :  11:30:29   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send GK Paul a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Starman

quote:
GK Paul claimed

Well there is much more evidence for the existence of Jesus than there is for something called primordial energy
Well, we covered the evidence for the existence of Jesus in the last thread.
(Summary: No independent evidence.)

Maybe you would like to inform us of how much evidence for primordial energy you believe there is?

The existence of Primordial Energy: (Summary: No evidence). At least God is in Webster's dictionary. Primordial Energy is a word made up by a scientist.


"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist

"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton


GK Paul
Edited by - GK Paul on 10/05/2006 11:38:24
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25975 Posts

Posted - 10/05/2006 :  11:45:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
I've never heard any scientist talking about "primordial energy." Googling for the term results in lots of zero-point-energy kooks and one lay article not written by a scientist.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 10/05/2006 :  11:54:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message
God is a word made up by humans. And?

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
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moakley
SFN Regular

USA
1882 Posts

Posted - 10/05/2006 :  13:38:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send moakley a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by pleco

God is a word made up by humans. And?

And I guess you create your evidence where you can. I can't believe that this is into Part 3.

Life is good

Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 10/05/2006 :  20:08:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message
GK Paul wrote:
quote:
The existence of Primordial Energy: (Summary: No evidence). At least God is in Webster's dictionary. Primordial Energy is a word made up by a scientist.


What is this primordial energy you speak of? I took a couple classes on physics and astonomy in college, and I read up a lot more on my own just for fun, and I do not recall ever reading or hearing that phrase anywhere.

I have read a bit on the Big Bang Theory. One of the best and shortest books is "The First Three Minutes" by Nobel Prize in Physics winner Steven Weinberg. It is a book written for the layman that explains how scientists know as much as they know about the Big Bang, and it also discusses what is not yet known. What is known gets down to within the first second on the Big Bang. If you are actually interested in what real Physicists think about this subject, and why they think what they think, I highly recommend this book.

However, I would suppliment it with some more recent writings. Anybody else got good recommendations (for myself too, not just GK.)

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 10/05/2006 :  20:10:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message
moakley wrote:
quote:
I can't believe that this is into Part 3.
Me neither. And yet I keep coming back... it's hard to resist someone so easy to debate with. We really should be ashamed of ourselves.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

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Starman
SFN Regular

Sweden
1613 Posts

Posted - 10/06/2006 :  00:04:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Starman a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by marfknox

What is this primordial energy you speak of? I took a couple classes on physics and astonomy in college, and I read up a lot more on my own just for fun, and I do not recall ever reading or hearing that phrase anywhere.

I have read a bit on the Big Bang Theory. One of the best and shortest books is "The First Three Minutes" by Nobel Prize in Physics winner Steven Weinberg. It is a book written for the layman that explains how scientists know as much as they know about the Big Bang, and it also discusses what is not yet known. What is known gets down to within the first second on the Big Bang. If you are actually interested in what real Physicists think about this subject, and why they think what they think, I highly recommend this book.
The Illustrated Brief History of Time, by Stephen Hawking is a great book on this subject.

Does not say anything on primordial energy however.

GK Paul, please explain! What is it that the lack of evidence for primordial energy is supposed to indicate?
That there is no god?
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moakley
SFN Regular

USA
1882 Posts

Posted - 10/06/2006 :  04:25:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send moakley a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by marfknox

moakley wrote:
quote:
I can't believe that this is into Part 3.
Me neither. And yet I keep coming back... it's hard to resist someone so easy to debate with. We really should be ashamed of ourselves.

Same here, but then we get references such as The First Three Minutes by Steven Weinberg. I start to wonder whether my local public library has a copy.

Life is good

Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend

USA
306 Posts

Posted - 10/09/2006 :  04:34:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send GK Paul a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by pleco

God is a word made up by humans. And?

test


"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist

"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton


GK Paul
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend

USA
306 Posts

Posted - 10/09/2006 :  04:40:29   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send GK Paul a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul

quote:
Originally posted by pleco

God is a word made up by humans. And?

test



"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist

"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton


GK Paul
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