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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
 Posted - 11/18/2006 : 06:21:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
Please list the constant flow of false assertions I've made.
Here is one false assertion made by you.
You can start with that one, then we can move on to the next. |
"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2006 : 15:24:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
For example when I said some of the inconsistencies in the Bible prove that man was seperated from God and that Christ needed to come. I believe that statement came from the Holy Spirit and not from me.
Did you just say that you believe that the Holy spirit is speaking through you ??? In a rational world, one not dominated by various flavors of religious beliefs, a statement such as this would get you labeled as a nut case. In a smaller world such as SFN such a label has already been given. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
| Edited by - moakley on 11/18/2006 15:25:05 |
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2006 : 16:58:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul...
Please list the constant flow of false assertions I've made.
GK Paul, in this posting you claim as original ideas presented by Jesus, "Love thy enemy, Love thy neighbor, give and it shall be given unto you, If someone takes your coat give them your cloak, receiving eternal life..." And immediately after, in this posting, I clearly showed those were more of your false assertions. Why don't you just grow some balls and say you were wrong? You refused to admit that you were wrong about those assertions, just a few among many, even though they may have just been errors or oversights on your part. But through your willful ignorance, you've changed what may have been simple mistakes into more bald faced lies.
Hey, how about you finally get around to answering a simple question which has been asked of you time and again in these conversations, but which you pretend to have not seen. (Your conscious ignorance of this amounts to yet another lie, by the way.) How you can justify lying to defend the existence of your bogeyman when one of the primary tenets of your superstition makes it against the rules to lie?
And here's a thought, GK Paul. Why don't you get your priest, preacher, minister, or whoever you consider to be your most trusted spiritual leader or advisor to read these threads, and give you his/her feedback regarding your constant lying here. Then you come back and let us know the gist of that feedback. I'd be willing to bet, if you really listen to your advisor, you'd come back here with a genuine apology for all your lying, and you'd show a lot more honesty in the future. You know, if you weren't so scared that your faith can't hold up against the truth supported by facts, you could actually do that without abandoning your silly superstition. But the biggest advantage you might discover is this: You'd be taking a giant step away from your childish ignorance and towards some integrity and maturity that would likely serve you well, not just with your sense of spirituality, but in all areas of your life.
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2006 : 05:34:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
...God doesn't exist in time so it is irrelevent to talk about "first" unless your trying to be understood by the human mind. Eternity has nothing to do with time. All time is is a measure dealing with the movement of something.
Sorry, GK but your claim was brought up in the questions to Dawkins. It doesn't make the argument for a god any more likely to claim god is outside of time. The Universe develops complexity over time. You don't get the most complex being first, it would have to evolve.
If you want to use your argument, I'll go back to the standard question, then where did god come from? If god supposedly was always here then it is just as likely the Universe was always here without a god creating it. Adding a god does nothing but add another layer which there is no reason to add.
If "Something cannot come from nothing" (-- Ken Tanaka - geologist), as you have in your sig line is true, then you can't claim god something came from nothing either. It's simply BS.
I have to disagree. It makes more sense to me for a living intelligent God to have always existed than for "the incredible energy needed to create 10 billion trillion stars (and eventially all life)" to have always existed. That "energy and matter" is a something. It doesn't make sense to me for a non-intelligent "something" to just have always existed.
There are only 2 possibilities. An eternal Intelligence created non-living things or eternal non-living things created intelligence. The former makes much more sense to me. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
| Edited by - GK Paul on 11/20/2006 05:46:06 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2006 : 11:10:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
The former makes much more sense to me.
There are plenty of things about the world we live in which "don't make sense" at first but are nevertheless true. It "makes sense" to think that the photons leaving my headlights as I drive down the highway at night are going 186,000 miles per second plus 60 miles an hour, but that would be wrong. I suppose that given the idea of a personal God who loves you, it's important to think that one can simply apply common sense to figure out how the universe works (why would God build it to be confusing?), but in reality, Nature seems to got give a hoot about whether its workings "make sense" to you or anyone else. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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McQ
Skeptic Friend
USA
258 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2006 : 14:17:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
...God doesn't exist in time so it is irrelevent to talk about "first" unless your trying to be understood by the human mind. Eternity has nothing to do with time. All time is is a measure dealing with the movement of something.
Sorry, GK but your claim was brought up in the questions to Dawkins. It doesn't make the argument for a god any more likely to claim god is outside of time. The Universe develops complexity over time. You don't get the most complex being first, it would have to evolve.
If you want to use your argument, I'll go back to the standard question, then where did god come from? If god supposedly was always here then it is just as likely the Universe was always here without a god creating it. Adding a god does nothing but add another layer which there is no reason to add.
If "Something cannot come from nothing" (-- Ken Tanaka - geologist), as you have in your sig line is true, then you can't claim god something came from nothing either. It's simply BS.
I have to disagree. It makes more sense to me for a living intelligent God to have always existed than for "the incredible energy needed to create 10 billion trillion stars (and eventially all life)" to have always existed. That "energy and matter" is a something. It doesn't make sense to me for a non-intelligent "something" to just have always existed.
There are only 2 possibilities. An eternal Intelligence created non-living things or eternal non-living things created intelligence. The former makes much more sense to me.
As Dave already pointed out, Nature doesn't give a hoot about what makes sense to us.
What you, and so many other people, are doing is anthropomorphizing the Universe and Nature. That's the wrong way to look at everything. Just because we are human and have sentience doesn't mean that the Universe owes us anything. The Universe having to "make sense" is really an unwitting arrogant view of things. If you could ask Bohr, Einstein, Schrodinger, et al, if things made sense to them, they'd say "Hell no!"
Nothing HAS to make sense to humans. The things that do make sense only do so because we experience them regularly and can relate to them. Or they can be understood through analogy or some other means. The Big Bang, Quantum Physics, Superstring Theory, and the rules of Curling don't have to make sense to be right or true. We just don't understand them yet, is all.
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Elvis didn't do no drugs!
--Penn Gillette |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2006 : 18:24:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
I have to disagree. It makes more sense to me for a living intelligent God to have always existed than for "the incredible energy needed to create 10 billion trillion stars (and eventially all life)" to have always existed. That "energy and matter" is a something. It doesn't make sense to me for a non-intelligent "something" to just have always existed.
Wow, that is a lot of energy and matter. What mechanisms did god use to create it? What source did god draw from? Did god have help? Who created the fjords of Norway? |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2006 : 19:14:29 [Permalink]
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And before all that, who/what created god(s)? (ad infitum/ad nauseum/ad monoteumn).
It's ok to say "I don't know", instead of plugging in the old 'god of the gaps'.
"Intelligence" is not the top of the heap. Nature doesn't keep a score card.
It's up to ourselves to give value to our lives. |
"We are all connected; to each other biologically, to the earth chemically, to the rest of the universe atomically."
"So you're made of detritus [from exploded stars]. Get over it. Or better yet, celebrate it. After all, what nobler thought can one cherish than that the universe lives within us all?"
-Neil DeGrasse Tyson |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2006 : 03:42:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by moakley
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
I have to disagree. It makes more sense to me for a living intelligent God to have always existed than for "the incredible energy needed to create 10 billion trillion stars (and eventially all life)" to have always existed. That "energy and matter" is a something. It doesn't make sense to me for a non-intelligent "something" to just have always existed.
Wow, that is a lot of energy and matter. What mechanisms did god use to create it? What source did god draw from? Did god have help? Who created the fjords of Norway?
I do not believe it is possible or God's desire for us to understand everything about Him, but I do believe God gives us enough information (thru nature, thru scripture, and even thru logic) to validate a belief in Him, and to even have a personal relationship with Him over time. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2006 : 04:07:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally believed by GK Paul
but I do believe God gives us enough information (thru nature, thru scripture, and even thru logic) to validate a belief in Him, and to even have a personal relationship with Him over time.
The "thru scripture" part is easy to understand, but how do you motivate the other two, nature & logic?
What is it in nature that supports belief in this particular deity?
What is it in logic that supports belief in this particular deity?
And also,
What is it in this scripture that sets it apart from other religious texts supporting different beliefs? |
"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2006 : 04:25:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by moakley
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
For example when I said some of the inconsistencies in the Bible prove that man was seperated from God and that Christ needed to come. I believe that statement came from the Holy Spirit and not from me.
Did you just say that you believe that the Holy spirit is speaking through you ??? In a rational world, one not dominated by various flavors of religious beliefs, a statement such as this would get you labeled as a nut case. In a smaller world such as SFN such a label has already been given.
If you haven't had an experience with the Holy Spirit, you will not understand the Holy Spirit. I do believe that the Holy Spirit does impart special gifts to people (just like the Bible says).
Wisdom, Knowledge, Prophesy, Healing, Discernment of (evil) Spirits are all gifts of the Holy Spirt. I believe at times I have been given
wisdom that comes from the Holy Spirit. That's not to say that I am perfect or have perfect knowledge.
Maybe I wasn't clear when I said that statement came from the Holy Spirit. What I meant to convey was that I believe that that word of Knowledge came to me from the Holy Spirit and I chose to write that word of knowledge in the post. The Holy Spirit did not force me to write that in the post. I'm just saying that I don't believe I was the originator of that knowledge and I really don't expect you to understand that if your not a believer.
If you ever become a believer maybe you will be given a gift of the Spirit.
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"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2006 : 04:37:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
I have to disagree. It makes more sense to me for a living intelligent God to have always existed than for "the incredible energy needed to create 10 billion trillion stars (and eventially all life)" to have always existed. That "energy and matter" is a something. It doesn't make sense to me for a non-intelligent "something" to just have always existed.
There are only 2 possibilities. An eternal Intelligence created non-living things or eternal non-living things created intelligence. The former makes much more sense to me.
This is a bit bothersome. Who says, definitively, that the energy was "incredible?" On a cosmic scale, it might not have amounted to all that much and only seems vast from our minuscule perspective.
And why only two possibilities? On that same cosmic scale, we, neither scientists nor theologians, nor laymen who are interested and study the subject, know next to nothing about the formation of the universe. Could be that there's a whole different set of laws of physics at work out there. Could be that Something Else did it.
And who says that a creation, for lack of a better word, event only happened just this once? Could be that we are laughin' and scratchin' around Universe Number Umteenth-Quadrillion.
And therein lies the rub, as The Bard once blithered. As a general rule, we think way too small. This is especially true of religious creationists of all flavors. They must have it all neatly packaged and presented in a form that is easy to grasp. "God done it!" answers all, and any mystery, beyond that of whatever invisible and incomprehensible deity presented, is neatly discounted as not worth consideration. It is one of the more blatant forms of intellectual dishonesty, I think.
I mean, how difficult is it to say: "I don't know!"
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2006 : 04:53:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
If you haven't had an experience with the Holy Spirit, you will not understand the Holy Spirit. I do believe that the Holy Spirit does impart special gifts to people (just like the Bible says).
Wisdom, Knowledge, Prophesy, Healing, Discernment of (evil) Spirits are all gifts of the Holy Spirt. I believe at times I have been given
wisdom that comes from the Holy Spirit. That's not to say that I am perfect or have perfect knowledge.
Maybe I wasn't clear when I said that statement came from the Holy Spirit. What I meant to convey was that I believe that that word of Knowledge came to me from the Holy Spirit and I chose to write that word of knowledge in the post. The Holy Spirit did not force me to write that in the post. I'm just saying that I don't believe I was the originator of that knowledge and I really don't expect you to understand that if your not a believer.
If you ever become a believer maybe you will be given a gift of the Spirit.
Interesting insight into a believers mind.
GK Paul, are you really saying that you think that inconsistencies in the Bible are proof (or evidence) of that christianity is true?
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"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2006 : 06:48:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Maybe I wasn't clear when I said that statement came from the Holy Spirit. What I meant to convey was that I believe that that word of Knowledge came to me from the Holy Spirit and I chose to write that word of knowledge in the post. The Holy Spirit did not force me to write that in the post. I'm just saying that I don't believe I was the originator of that knowledge and I really don't expect you to understand that if your not a believer.
If you ever become a believer maybe you will be given a gift of the Spirit.
As an ex-believer ( Assembly of God, played in the church choir, was being groomed to be a preacher, read the bible more times than you can count (just the OT and NT of course, no mention of any other writings to look at), even spoke in tounges (faked of course, but that's another story)), I really do understand where your mindset comes from.
But from the outside looking in, it is so easy now to see how silly it all really is.
As a believer you cannot allow yourself to question any of your beliefs. Once you start asking honest questions, you will never get honest answers.
So, you attribute all things you don't understand or that seem strange/contradictory to you to "the holy spirit" or "god" or whatever mystical force is available.
I understand; I did it myself for a short time.
I hope one day you wake up from your delusion. This is not meant to be rude; I am being very sincere. As an ex-believer, I hope all believers can one day extract themselves.
Edit to add:
If you never let go of your religion, and you are happy for not doing so, then more power to you. I wish upon everyone that they find that which makes them happy as long as it doesn't prevent someone else from finding the same thing.
Just don't ever impose what you believe on others, and don't impose any psuedo-science on our children, who so desperately need math, real science, logic, and critical thinking now more than ever. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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| Edited by - pleco on 11/24/2006 08:31:09 |
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McQ
Skeptic Friend
USA
258 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2006 : 09:36:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by pleco
quote:
Maybe I wasn't clear when I said that statement came from the Holy Spirit. What I meant to convey was that I believe that that word of Knowledge came to me from the Holy Spirit and I chose to write that word of knowledge in the post. The Holy Spirit did not force me to write that in the post. I'm just saying that I don't believe I was the originator of that knowledge and I really don't expect you to understand that if your not a believer.
If you ever become a believer maybe you will be given a gift of the Spirit.
As an ex-believer ( Assembly of God, played in the church choir, was being groomed to be a preacher, read the bible more times than you can count (just the OT and NT of course, no mention of any other writings to look at), even spoke in tounges (faked of course, but that's another story)), I really do understand where your mindset comes from.
But from the outside looking in, it is so easy now to see how silly it all really is.
As a believer you cannot allow yourself to question any of your beliefs. Once you start asking honest questions, you will never get honest answers.
So, you attribute all things you don't understand or that seem strange/contradictory to you to "the holy spirit" or "god" or whatever mystical force is available.
I understand; I did it myself for a short time.
I hope one day you wake up from your delusion. This is not meant to be rude; I am being very sincere. As an ex-believer, I hope all believers can one day extract themselves.
Edit to add:
If you never let go of your religion, and you are happy for not doing so, then more power to you. I wish upon everyone that they find that which makes them happy as long as it doesn't prevent someone else from finding the same thing.
Just don't ever impose what you believe on others, and don't impose any psuedo-science on our children, who so desperately need math, real science, logic, and critical thinking now more than ever.
Well spake, sir!
I have a similar background experience with pleco, although GK Paul has me on his ignore list, so I'm glad pleco wrote what I was thinking. It's amazing to me how often christians and especially fundies ignore the fact that many non-believers have already been in their shoes and have gone through all the arguments and mental gyrations already. |
Elvis didn't do no drugs!
--Penn Gillette |
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