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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
 Posted - 11/08/2006 : 15:15:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by chaloobi
Not only that, said threat is entirely un-Chrisitian. Jesus' god was infinitely compassionate, loving and forgiving. What threat of eternal punishment would such a god EVER make or make good on? Said god also was a complete pacifist and taught that revenge was bad. How can anyone call themself a Christian and at the same time be satisfied that those who don't accept Jesus will be punished in Hell???? They are completely incompatible ideas.
EDIT: spelling ...
Hell is a New Testament notion, not a holdover from the Old Testament. I once heard it remarked that many of Jesus' ideas can be found in other, older religions. His only really original contribution to theology was the concept of Hell.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 11/08/2006 15:17:20 |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2006 : 07:33:49 [Permalink]
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I think you're being a little hard on Jesus.... the truth is if you look at his teachings specifically, he had some good suggestions. If humans actually lived like that, the world would be a different place. I'm not at all sure such a thing is possible given human nature or that the world would necessarily be a BETTER place, but it would be different. The negatives that come out of Christianity are what peopple have done with it over the centuries - not the Jesus stuff. Jesus never advocated social control, heirarchical power structures living like leaches on the neck of society, fanatical warfare, condemnation of social outsiders, etc etc.
If I get time I'm going to try and find some references to Jesus' talk about hell. If you have any at hand, please post. |
-Chaloobi
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2006 : 05:29:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
quote:
Originally posted by chaloobi
Not only that, said threat is entirely un-Chrisitian. Jesus' god was infinitely compassionate, loving and forgiving. What threat of eternal punishment would such a god EVER make or make good on? Said god also was a complete pacifist and taught that revenge was bad. How can anyone call themself a Christian and at the same time be satisfied that those who don't accept Jesus will be punished in Hell???? They are completely incompatible ideas.
EDIT: spelling ...
Hell is a New Testament notion, not a holdover from the Old Testament. I once heard it remarked that many of Jesus' ideas can be found in other, older religions. His only really original contribution to theology was the concept of Hell.
Original ideas -- How about: Love thy enemy, Love thy neighbor, give and it shall be given unto you, If someone takes your coat give them your cloak, receiving eternal life, just to name a few. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2006 : 10:56:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul...
Original ideas -- How about: Love thy enemy, Love thy neighbor, give and it shall be given unto you, If someone takes your coat give them your cloak, receiving eternal life, just to name a few.
It would do you well to do a little research, GK Paul, for a change, before mouthing off like this. You continue to make yourself look foolish and uneducated when you say these silly things. Apparently you'll declare as truth those things you simply believe, rather than spend five minutes on Google and actually learn a little something about them. You say your particular bogeyman brought those concepts to the world, but consistent with your modus operandi, once again your claim is a lie.
The idea of eternal life far outdates the origins of your beliefs, and has been noted in many cultures which were completely isolated from any influence of your superstition. And all your other mistakes in that comment can be rolled into the singular topic of the ethic of reciprocity. This concept, in all its various associated forms, has been part of human culture and superstition for (at least) several centuries before anyone ever dreamed up your particular brand of superstition.
So, GK Paul, how about you show some integrity for once and just admit that you're wrong here?
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| Edited by - GeeMack on 11/10/2006 12:22:21 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2006 : 13:46:50 [Permalink]
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Thanks for that information about the ethic of reciprocity, GeeMack.
I would suggest that this ethic springs directly from the "theory of mind" which is now being studied by psychologists in both humans and animals. (This "theory of mind" refers to the informal "theory" an individual forms that others think as he does, and itself presupposes self-awareness.)
Most humans, certain apes, and possibly some elephants and other creatures, seem to have a self-awareness and a theory of mind, meaning that they have a concept that other creatures have minds much like themselves. My guess is that this understanding either comes packaged with the ethic of reciprocity, or is one step immediately short of it.
It may even be, then, that the ethic of reciprocity is millions of years old. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" may have been a Homo erectus code, even before there were words to express it. It's nice that Jesus picked up on it. Too bad so many other essential Biblical characters at best only applied it to members of their own tribe.
[Edit: Grammar, typos, and intelligibility, dammit!]
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 11/11/2006 00:43:40 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9696 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2006 : 14:09:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
It's nice that Jesus picked up on it. Too bad so many other essential Biblical characters at best only applied it to members of their own tribe.
So, are you're saying that the Bible is racist? |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2006 : 00:23:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
It's nice that Jesus picked up on it.
The more important point being that Moses picked up on it, so GK Paul's assertion that it was original with Jesus is falsified by the same source material, the Bible.
Not that anything else you said, Half wasn't important or relevant, I'm just using the opportunity to help emphasize GeeMack's point. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2006 : 03:04:47 [Permalink]
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Well, if you don't like the previous teachings I mentioned than you might try reading some of these:
http://www.teachingsofjesus-inhiswords.com/
I believe these teachings are the "only" hope for a dead and dying world irregardless of the eternal life topic.
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"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2006 : 06:09:56 [Permalink]
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Wow, I love the pattern here.
1) A makes an assertion of truth
2) B-Z determine said assertion is false, and state so.
3) A ignores B-Z's statement.
4) Go to Step 1
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by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2006 : 09:21:31 [Permalink]
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| Well, since the only people who replied to GK Paul's "Original ideas" post are allegedly on his "Ignore List," it seems that he screwed up by posting his "if you don't like the previous teachings" post. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2006 : 11:49:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by chaloobi
If I get time I'm going to try and find some references to Jesus' talk about hell. If you have any at hand, please post.
Sure.
quote:
The Old Testament has no reference to hell; punishment ceased at death. The New Testament creates the concept of eternal punishment. Jesus may love you, but if you break his rules (and don't say you're sorry) you will get tortured forever.
Matthew 18:9
And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2006 : 00:18:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
...So, are you're[sic] saying that the Bible is racist?
I don't know about HM's opinion, but the Bible is most defintely racist.
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2006 : 00:28:24 [Permalink]
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Just heard a Dawkins lecture on CSPAN. Very interesting since the talk was given in theist land.
Dawkins idea:
God is too complex, too advanced to be first. We have evidence of the BB, then things evolve from the simplest to the most complex, us. It makes no sense at all for the most complex advanced intelligent life form, (gods), to be first.
And here I was waiting for Dawkins to give the usual line of, "Yeah but, you've just substituted another layer of inexplicability over the unexplained question, "Where did the Universe come from?"
I also liked his answer to the usual, "But what if you're wrong?" He said the questioner was only a Christian by circumstance of birth. "What if Christianity is wrong and the sea gods were the correct ones?" [something like that]
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2006 : 01:19:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
I also liked his answer to the usual, "But what if you're wrong?" He said the questioner was only a Christian by circumstance of birth. "What if Christianity is wrong and the sea gods were the correct ones?" [something like that]
An oldie-but-goodie. The quote in Ricky's signature is just one variation. My own response to Pascal's Wager (that because there are thousands of God-concepts I'll be likely to pick wrong) is another. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9696 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2006 : 06:28:08 [Permalink]
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GK Paul, I'd like you to take a good look at pleco's post below, because it is making a very important observation about your behaviour here on Skeptic Friends Network.quote:
Originally posted by pleco
Wow, I love the pattern here.
1) A makes an assertion of truth
2) B-Z determine said assertion is false, and state so.
3) A ignores B-Z's statement.
4) Go to Step 1
Please exchange A for yourself in this quote, and B-Z for "someone, anyone".
Search your soul, and acknowledge to us that this is indeed the pattern you display. If you cannot see the truth in this, then there is no common ground what-so-ever for us on which to build a meaningful dialogue.
Edited to fix spelling. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 11/12/2006 14:28:31 |
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