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 Wanted for torture, Rummy can't visit Europe
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 11/11/2006 :  23:54:53  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
Isn't this a pretty situation?: According to Time, Germany's top prosecutor is planning to charge outgoing (but still serving) Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld as a torturer, "along with Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, former CIA director George Tenet and other senior U.S. civilian and military officers, for their alleged roles in abuses committed at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison and at the U.S. detention facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba." Five other Bush Administration people are also being charged.

Rummy says he won't attend "a major security conference in Munich, where he was scheduled to be the keynote speaker, unless Germany disposed of the case." In effect, being a fugitive makes it impossible for Rummy to do his job. This nasty bastard needs to go now, and not wait around for his replacement to be confirmed.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.

beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 11/12/2006 :  00:06:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
I think this is a wake up call for all those Bush supporters who think torture is OK. No it isn't. Period!


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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25975 Posts

Posted - 11/12/2006 :  00:09:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
I knew this sounded familiar:
Indeed, a similar, but narrower, legal action was brought in Germany in 2004, which also sought the prosecution of Rumsfeld. The case provoked an angry response from Pentagon, and Rumsfeld himself was reportedly upset. Rumsfeld's spokesman at the time, Lawrence DiRita, called the case a "a big, big problem." U.S. officials made clear the case could adversely impact U.S.-Germany relations, and Rumsfeld indicated he would not attend a major security conference in Munich, where he was scheduled to be the keynote speaker, unless Germany disposed of the case. The day before the conference, a German prosecutor announced he would not pursue the matter, saying there was no indication that U.S. authorities and courts would not deal with allegations in the complaint.

- from the article

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 11/12/2006 :  00:12:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
Then there's the irony of Germany having to teach us lessons in human rights.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 11/12/2006 :  00:30:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
That's a good one HM. Hadn't thought of that.


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Maverick
Skeptic Friend

Sweden
385 Posts

Posted - 11/12/2006 :  04:02:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Maverick a Private Message
If Germany is currently violating human rights I suppose there is some irony in this.

"Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy." -- Carl Sagan
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 11/12/2006 :  04:16:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
Maverick said:
quote:
If Germany is currently violating human rights I suppose there is some irony in this.


No, its ironic anyway.

Unless, of course, you are a holocaust denier?


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 11/12/2006 :  05:11:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message
I think they forgot a couple of administration members...wink wink nudge nudge.

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 11/12/2006 :  10:03:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
Just to be clear for any who might have misunderstood, I wasn't trying to be sly or sarcastic or a Eurobasher when I wrote, "Then there's the irony of Germany having to teach us lessons in human rights."

(Also, note that I did not express this as, "Then there's the irony of the likes of Germany thinking they can teach us lessons in human rights".)

I do think Germans in general have learned from their own history. And I think that the Fascism there over half a century ago is something that should never be forgotten by Germans or the world. The Holocaust is a quite recent event, something that happened within the memory of people who live amongst us. It's not ancient history. And even were it ancient history, it ought to be remembered just as vividly.

The irony lies in the fact that our Bush government at the moment is closer to Fascism than is Germany's. No, we're not very close to outright Fascism, but we're closer to it than is Germany, which perfected it under Hitler.

It is our nation torturing people as policy, not theirs. Yes, the Nazis did far worse in the 1930's and 1940's than we are doing now, and I think what Bush & Co. are doing now is a brief criminal aberration in the annals of our history.

But for the moment, it seems that some Americans have learned far less from the Holocaust than did the German people. It is to the German people's credit, and to the American people's shame, including my own, for allowing this to happen.

I honestly feel we should have long ago taken up arms, gone to the barricades, and overthrown Bush and his bloody-handed semi-neo-fascists, setting up Constitutional rule once again.

But as the 2006 elections have proven, change is coming, though perhaps too slowly to prevent many more unconscionable abuses, and much more death in Iraq.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend

USA
427 Posts

Posted - 11/12/2006 :  16:16:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Mycroft a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
The irony lies in the fact that our Bush government at the moment is closer to Fascism than is Germany's. No, we're not very close to outright Fascism, but we're closer to it than is Germany, which perfected it under Hitler.


This isn't ironic at all. Germany with its recent history of fascism is very likely to be more anti-fascist than most other nations.

quote:
Originally posted by HalfMoonerIt is our nation torturing people as policy, not theirs...


I believe it has yet to be established that anything done by the US rises to the level of torture.

quote:
Originally posted by HalfMoonerBut for the moment, it seems that some Americans have learned far less from the Holocaust than did the German people. It is to the German people's credit, and to the American people's shame, including my own, for allowing this to happen.


Hyperbole.

quote:
Originally posted by HalfMoonerI honestly feel we should have long ago taken up arms, gone to the barricades, and overthrown Bush and his bloody-handed semi-neo-fascists, setting up Constitutional rule once again.



And this is where you step off the edge into woo-woo territory. Whatever your opinion of Bush, his administration and their policies, they were democratically elected, they rule according to Constitutional law, and advocating their violent overthrow is the antithesis of democracy.
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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 11/12/2006 :  18:21:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message
quote:
they were democratically elected


LOL

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
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Starman
SFN Regular

Sweden
1613 Posts

Posted - 11/13/2006 :  01:57:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Starman a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by pleco
quote:
they were democratically elected
LOL
Feels much better to pretend that they wasn't does it?

Just accept it, election irregularities aside, the majority of the Americans did not vote to keep Bush & Co out of office in 2000 and did not vote to kick them out in 2004.

quote:
Originally posted by Mycroft

I believe it has yet to be established that anything done by the US rises to the level of torture.
Oh dear, another one that has been living in a cave for a few years.
Lets put it this way, the US seem to be very fond of Fraternity Hazing when they get hold of someone that might have information (or maybe just the wrong name).
Edited by - Starman on 11/13/2006 02:00:09
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 11/13/2006 :  01:57:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Mycroft

....
I believe it has yet to be established that anything done by the US rises to the level of torture.....


I imagine you must be happy living in your fantasyland. But you really should take off those foggy pink glasses once in a while and see what the real world is all about. It isn't even a stretch to find cases of torture initiated or perpetrated by this administration, they readily admit it and claim it has been successful (despite having little evidence of those claimed successes).

On the other hand, if you are just arguing semantics and claim nothing done to Bush's enemy combatants amounted to real torture, then you hold a minority opinion on that matter, and, as the definition of torture depends on where you draw the line on a continuum, majority opinion indicates your opinion is wrong.




Edited by - beskeptigal on 11/13/2006 02:04:41
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Starman
SFN Regular

Sweden
1613 Posts

Posted - 11/13/2006 :  02:14:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Starman a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by pleco

I think they forgot a couple of administration members...wink wink nudge nudge.
There is a reason that the US has threatened with violence if any of its service men or elected or appointed officials are taken to the the International Criminal Court.
Edited by - Starman on 11/13/2006 02:16:36
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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 11/13/2006 :  08:13:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message
Starman said:

quote:
Feels much better to pretend that they wasn't does it?

Just accept it, election irregularities aside, the majority of the Americans did not vote to keep Bush & Co out of office in 2000 and did not vote to kick them out in 2004.



Acutally, more voters DID vote against Bush & Co in 2000. Gore had 51,003,926 (48.4%) while Bush had 50,460,110 (47.9%). Nader had 2,883,105 (2.7%). Adding Nader and Gore together gives a majority against Bush.

Link

And that is without looking at any election "irregularities".

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
Edited by - pleco on 11/13/2006 08:16:23
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Starman
SFN Regular

Sweden
1613 Posts

Posted - 11/13/2006 :  14:16:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Starman a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by pleco

Adding Nader and Gore together gives a majority against Bush.
That is the majority of the voters and not the majority of the Americans which was my point and what I wrote.

There is also no reason to add Naders votes to Gores as they were not for Gore, the only possible alternative to Bush in that election.
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