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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 11/14/2006 :  05:48:31  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message
Great. One congress gets purged for corruption and so the incoming congress backs one of the most corrupt figures on the hill for House majority leader. One reason the government can't make it on the current tax contributions we already give them:

$95 million in "earmarks" that end up going to brothers and business partners.

Yeah, I want to send these guys more of my money in the form of a tax "contribution."





In backing Murtha, Pelosi draws fire


By Jonathan Weisman

Updated: 12:36 a.m. ET Nov 14, 2006
House Speaker-designate Nancy Pelosi's endorsement of Rep. John P. Murtha's bid for House majority leader set off a furor yesterday on Capitol Hill, with critics charging that she is undercutting her pledge to clean up corruption by backing a veteran lawmaker who they say has repeatedly skirted ethical boundaries.

Pelosi (D-Calif.) directly intervened in the heated contest between Murtha (D-Pa.) and House Minority Whip Steny H. Hoyer (D-Md.) on Sunday by circulating a letter to Democratic lawmakers. The letter voiced her support for Murtha and put her prestige on the line in a closely fought leadership battle. Some Democratic lawmakers and watchdog groups say they are baffled that Pelosi would go out of her way to back Murtha's candidacy after pledging to make the new 110th Congress the most ethical and corruption-free in history.



Murtha, a longtime senior Democrat on the House Appropriations Committee, has battled accusations over the years that he has traded federal spending for campaign contributions, that he has abused his post as ranking party member on the Appropriations defense subcommittee, and that he has stood in the way of ethics investigations. Those charges come on top of Murtha's involvement 26 years ago in the FBI's Abscam bribery sting.


"Pelosi's endorsement suggests to me she was interested in the culture of corruption only as a campaign issue and has no real interest in true reform," said Melanie Sloan, executive director of Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington (CREW), a Democratic-leaning group. "It is shocking to me that someone with [Murtha's] ethics problems could be number two in the House leadership."

"People have known about these things for months," said one Democratic House member who spoke on the condition of anonymity because he did not want to anger the presumed incoming speaker. "I am sure they are going to become much more important in the next few days."

Andrew Koneschusky, a spokesman for Murtha, declined to discuss ethics issues, saying: "We are focused on the future. We are focused on electing the best candidate to lead our party and deliver the change the American people want, and that is Jack Murtha. We are looking forward, not backward."

Pelosi said in her letter that she was swayed to endorse Murtha, a longtime ally, by his early call for a withdrawal of U.S. forces from Iraq. Pelosi aides and Murtha supporters said the charges against him are trivial or untrue. A senior Pelosi aide conceded that her endorsement is risky but said that she had to show her loyalty to Murtha, who has been steadfastly loyal to her.

‘No substance'
As for the ethics issue, "there's no substance to it," said Rep. Linda T. Sanchez (D-Calif.), a strong supporter of Murtha.

At issue is Murtha's relationships with two defense lobbyists. Paul Magliocchetti of the PMA Group is a former aide to the lawmaker, and Robert "Kit" Murtha is his brother and was a senior partner at KSA Consulting from 2002 to 2005.

The PMA Group has become the go-to firm to approach Murtha as ranking Democrat on the Appropriations defense subcommittee, CREW charges. In the 2006 defense appropriations bill, PMA clients reaped at least 60 special provisions, or "earmarks," worth more than $95 million.

The PMA Group and its clients have been top campaign contributors for Murtha: $274,649 in the 2006 campaign cycle, $236,799 in the 2004 cycle and $279,074 in the 2002

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

Original_Intent
SFN Regular

USA
609 Posts

Posted - 11/14/2006 :  05:57:08   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Original_Intent a Private Message
Didn't take them anytime at all. Hell, they haven't even officially started.......

Peace
Joe
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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 11/14/2006 :  06:26:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Original_Intent

Didn't take them anytime at all. Hell, they haven't even officially started.......

Peace
Joe




Governments of men were, are and will always be corrupt.

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 11/14/2006 :  07:08:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message
And women too...:-)

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 11/14/2006 :  07:18:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
We just need to make it a capitol crime to accept a bribe while serving in congress or any of the appointed jobs the president gets to appoint people to.

Lobbying has its place, and it serves a usefull function, but it also opens doors and creates opportunities for people to become corrupt. I'm not sure how we could police it to clean it up really.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 11/14/2006 :  07:26:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by pleco

And women too...:-)




Exactly P.


"A senior Pelosi aide conceded that her endorsement is risky but said that she had to show her loyalty to Murtha, who has been steadfastly
loyal to her."

In other words, "Screw the American people who gave me this power. I need to pay up to this pond scum who got me to where I am today."

Great ethics and loyalty to the people who put you in power, Mrs Pelosi.


"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 11/14/2006 :  07:33:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dude

We just need to make it a capitol crime to accept a bribe while serving in congress or any of the appointed jobs the president gets to appoint people to.

Lobbying has its place, and it serves a usefull function, but it also opens doors and creates opportunities for people to become corrupt. I'm not sure how we could police it to clean it up really.





quote:
I'm not sure how we could police it to clean it up really.


Has there ever been an ethical and moral government in the history of the world who put the intrest of the people and common good ahead of themselves and their common good?

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 11/14/2006 :  09:50:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message
But the other guy, Steny Hoyer, also has charges of being corrupt and unethical.

From Will Bunch's Numbers Rackete: http://www.philly.com/mld/dailynews/news/local/16009528.htm
quote:
2 Democratic candidates for the high-profile job of House majority leader down in Washington, including Pennsylvania's Jack Murtha. One candidate is ethically challenged and the other is...ethically challenged. "The culture of corruption" never dies.


And from this liberal columnist: http://www.niagarafallsreporter.com/gallagher289.html
quote:
Jack Murtha should be picked as the Democratic majority leader in the House, not his rival Steny Hoyer. Murtha's dramatic defection and criticism of the war was a turning point that roused public opinion. He is frank, and his military credentials are impeccable. Hoyer is far too cozy with lobbyists and corporate interests.


And a profile for both Murtha and Hoyer is here: http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/001981.php

quote:
Rep. Steny Hoyer (MD): Hoyer, an appropriator, hopes to be House Majority Leader. Unfortunately, he has an addiction to special interest money, and eagerly courts K Street donors. Does that matter? He broke ranks with his party last year to vote in favor of a draconian bankruptcy bill that would bar many Americans from getting out from under debt, regardless of the circumstances which landed them there. Hoyer has taken around $120,000 from lending institutions this cycle. It's okay to slow-dance with 'em, Steny; but don't let them take you home.


so Bill's crass assessment - In other words, "Screw the American people who gave me this power. I need to pay up to this pond scum who got me to where I am today." - is pretty off. Pelosi and the Democrats made a huge deal of Iraq. Corruption was a major issue, but Iraq was right up there at the top, and Jack Murtha has been a very vocal advocate for phased withdrawal from Iraq, while also keeping a cool head. And just as Murtha is high profile for his corruption charges, he is higher profile for his speaking out on Iraq. Also, despite the fact that there have been scandal charges over 20 years old, the guy hasn't been taken down. The Republicans didn't even put any will behind the candidate who ran against him and try to use the corruption issue to take him down.

Bottom line, this issue isn't nearly so cut and dry as Bill is making it seem in this discussion.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 11/14/2006 :  10:00:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message
Bill wrote:
quote:
Governments of men were, are and will always be corrupt.


quote:
Has there ever been an ethical and moral government in the history of the world who put the intrest of the people and common good ahead of themselves and their common good?


It's not that I don't sympathize with and even sometimes share your cynical sentiments here, but what is your point? Are you an anarchist?

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 11/14/2006 :  11:21:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by marfknox

But the other guy, Steny Hoyer, also has charges of being corrupt and unethical.

From Will Bunch's Numbers Rackete: http://www.philly.com/mld/dailynews/news/local/16009528.htm
quote:
2 Democratic candidates for the high-profile job of House majority leader down in Washington, including Pennsylvania's Jack Murtha. One candidate is ethically challenged and the other is...ethically challenged. "The culture of corruption" never dies.


And from this liberal columnist: http://www.niagarafallsreporter.com/gallagher289.html
quote:
Jack Murtha should be picked as the Democratic majority leader in the House, not his rival Steny Hoyer. Murtha's dramatic defection and criticism of the war was a turning point that roused public opinion. He is frank, and his military credentials are impeccable. Hoyer is far too cozy with lobbyists and corporate interests.


And a profile for both Murtha and Hoyer is here: http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/001981.php

quote:
Rep. Steny Hoyer (MD): Hoyer, an appropriator, hopes to be House Majority Leader. Unfortunately, he has an addiction to special interest money, and eagerly courts K Street donors. Does that matter? He broke ranks with his party last year to vote in favor of a draconian bankruptcy bill that would bar many Americans from getting out from under debt, regardless of the circumstances which landed them there. Hoyer has taken around $120,000 from lending institutions this cycle. It's okay to slow-dance with 'em, Steny; but don't let them take you home.


so Bill's crass assessment - In other words, "Screw the American people who gave me this power. I need to pay up to this pond scum who got me to where I am today." - is pretty off. Pelosi and the Democrats made a huge deal of Iraq. Corruption was a major issue, but Iraq was right up there at the top, and Jack Murtha has been a very vocal advocate for phased withdrawal from Iraq, while also keeping a cool head. And just as Murtha is high profile for his corruption charges, he is higher profile for his speaking out on Iraq. Also, despite the fact that there have been scandal charges over 20 years old, the guy hasn't been taken down. The Republicans didn't even put any will behind the candidate who ran against him and try to use the corruption issue to take him down.

Bottom line, this issue isn't nearly so cut and dry as Bill is making it seem in this discussion.





quote:
"But the other guy, Steny Hoyer, also has charges of being corrupt and unethical. From Will Bunch's Numbers Rackete:"


So Pelosi sides with Murtha because she owes him favors and he, debatable, is less un-ethical then Steny? Great way to start off the most ethical congress on the hill Nancy.




quote:
"One candidate is ethically challenged and the other is...ethically challenged. "The culture of corruption" never dies. "

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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Original_Intent
SFN Regular

USA
609 Posts

Posted - 11/14/2006 :  15:01:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Original_Intent a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by marfknox

But the other guy, Steny Hoyer, also has charges of being corrupt and unethical.

From Will Bunch's Numbers Rackete: http://www.philly.com/mld/dailynews/news/local/16009528.htm
quote:
2 Democratic candidates for the high-profile job of House majority leader down in Washington, including Pennsylvania's Jack Murtha. One candidate is ethically challenged and the other is...ethically challenged. "The culture of corruption" never dies.


And from this liberal columnist: http://www.niagarafallsreporter.com/gallagher289.html
quote:
Jack Murtha should be picked as the Democratic majority leader in the House, not his rival Steny Hoyer. Murtha's dramatic defection and criticism of the war was a turning point that roused public opinion. He is frank, and his military credentials are impeccable. Hoyer is far too cozy with lobbyists and corporate interests.


And a profile for both Murtha and Hoyer is here: http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/001981.php

quote:
Rep. Steny Hoyer (MD): Hoyer, an appropriator, hopes to be House Majority Leader. Unfortunately, he has an addiction to special interest money, and eagerly courts K Street donors. Does that matter? He broke ranks with his party last year to vote in favor of a draconian bankruptcy bill that would bar many Americans from getting out from under debt, regardless of the circumstances which landed them there. Hoyer has taken around $120,000 from lending institutions this cycle. It's okay to slow-dance with 'em, Steny; but don't let them take you home.


so Bill's crass assessment - In other words, "Screw the American people who gave me this power. I need to pay up to this pond scum who got me to where I am today." - is pretty off. Pelosi and the Democrats made a huge deal of Iraq. Corruption was a major issue, but Iraq was right up there at the top, and Jack Murtha has been a very vocal advocate for phased withdrawal from Iraq, while also keeping a cool head. And just as Murtha is high profile for his corruption charges, he is higher profile for his speaking out on Iraq. Also, despite the fact that there have been scandal charges over 20 years old, the guy hasn't been taken down. The Republicans didn't even put any will behind the candidate who ran against him and try to use the corruption issue to take him down.

Bottom line, this issue isn't nearly so cut and dry as Bill is making it seem in this discussion.



Cut an dry. One curropt SOB, period. Knowlingly supporting a curropt SOB is pure BS and says a lot about the the promotors and THEIR agendas over what is right.

I am not sure which polls you are using, but according to the US General Exit Poll (Edison Mitolsky), curroption beat out the war in Iraq.

Change in faces, no change in outlook. Nothing learned.

Peace
Joe
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4954 Posts

Posted - 11/14/2006 :  18:51:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message
Except perhaps Murtha's part of a smear campaign (see, e.g. here)?

One tip off is the inclusion of this comment in the article Bill cited: "Those charges come on top of Murtha's involvement 26 years ago in the FBI's Abscam bribery sting." Uh, 26 years ago? My guess is that if he were guilty of something like bribery, he'd not be in Congress right now-- not in this climate. And indeed, CNN tells us that "Murtha also turned up in the FBI's Abscam investigation in 1980, when undercover agents offered bribes to several members of Congress. Murtha was videotaped turning down a bribe 'at this point,' and he was not charged." So he didn't take bribes, and that's evidence that he's crooked? Indeed, a quick Google-search of Jonathan Weisman shows that he's not exactly a paragon of impartiality. This blog notes that Mr Weisman often acts like an RNC shill, parroting various right-wing talking points uncritically and passing it off as news-- not that this is uncommon in today's *ahem* "liberal" press corps-- but when this type of story comes out now (it's not like Murtha's been an unknown or something), we should be, uh, skeptical.
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular

USA
609 Posts

Posted - 11/14/2006 :  21:22:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Original_Intent a Private Message
Come on, a know he is a Dem, but that is part of the problem...... Blast anyone but a Demm.....

Lets see.... Halubutin bad, KSA good.... (or should I say Republicans helping Haliburton bad, Murtha helping KSA good.

I guess 34 years isn't enough time to either figure out the rules (PMA) or bother to learn the rules you are passing. Ignorance of the law and all.......

No, he didn't take bribes.. He wasn't a dumbass like the rest..... Who the hell takes that much cash besides really stupid people........ There is enough of a question that to promote him is going to be nothing but serious fodder if it blows up. Good luck recovering from it.

All those other folks to choose from....... And they pick him....

Peace
Joe


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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 11/14/2006 :  21:40:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message
Bill wrote:
quote:
Anarchist? No. Realist? Yes.
I didn't know those two terms were mutual exclusive. I'm sure most anarchists would also say that they are realists. They would also agree with most of the other stuff you've said in this conversation.
quote:
So throughout the world's history do we have a model of a completely ethical and moral government where the people are first and all agendas are just? I wonder why not?
I still have no idea what you are getting at, though it appears you are trying to get at something. Mind writing in plain terms?

OI wrote:
quote:
Come on, a know he is a Dem, but that is part of the problem...... Blast anyone but a Demm.....
What!? The last Dem president was impeached for twisting a side truth in a civil trial to cover up an affair. The last Dem presidential candidate was completely demonized for his criticism of military intervention even though he volunteered to serve in an especially dangerous manner in Vietnam and took home 4 purple hearts. Blast anyone but a Dem??? I think the Dems get plenty of blasting.

quote:
Lets see.... Halubutin bad, KSA good.... (or should I say Republicans helping Haliburton bad, Murtha helping KSA good.
Who the fuck said that?

quote:

All those other folks to choose from....... And they pick him....
What other folks to choose from? Murtha and Hoyer are the only two contenders as far as I've read.

Look, I don't want either of these guys to get the position. I'm simply pointing out that Pelosi has 2 choices and they both suck, and you guys could say the same stuff whichever one she chooses to go behind. Personally I think I'd like the policies in general that Murtha would push, but I'm also pretty pissed that Murtha sided with Republicans, blocking anti-corruption legislation, so I end up feeling pretty apathetic.

Shit, I think this is reminding me why most Americans don't vote in the first place. But Americans being so uninvolved in politics is what helps foster this kind of crap. *sigh*

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2006 :  05:46:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist

Except perhaps Murtha's part of a smear campaign (see, e.g. here)?

One tip off is the inclusion of this comment in the article Bill cited: "Those charges come on top of Murtha's involvement 26 years ago in the FBI's Abscam bribery sting." Uh, 26 years ago? My guess is that if he were guilty of something like bribery, he'd not be in Congress right now-- not in this climate. And indeed, CNN tells us that "Murtha also turned up in the FBI's Abscam investigation in 1980, when undercover agents offered bribes to several members of Congress. Murtha was videotaped turning down a bribe 'at this point,' and he was not charged." So he didn't take bribes, and that's evidence that he's crooked? Indeed, a quick Google-search of Jonathan Weisman shows that he's not exactly a paragon of impartiality. This blog notes that Mr Weisman often acts like an RNC shill, parroting various right-wing talking points uncritically and passing it off as news-- not that this is uncommon in today's *ahem* "liberal" press corps-- but when this type of story comes out now (it's not like Murtha's been an unknown or something), we should be, uh, skeptical.





quote:
Except perhaps Murtha's part of a smear campaign


OK stop it, just stop it. Now your just rambling.


Your willingness to try and defend this character shows your just being lead along by your blind ideology. How can you actually defend this man for a position with a straight face?


From his brother Kit (who received $95 million in pork from ethically challenged Murtha) (this is rich):

Murtha's subcommittee, according to lobbying records and interviews. And most retained the firm after Kit Murtha became a senior partner in 2002." Kit Murtha told the Times that he saw Rep. Murtha only infrequently, but said the congressman knew he was a KSA lobbyist. "I don't think that influences him," Kit said of his brother. "I certainly would hope not."


I certainly hope not? What a crock of XXXX....


Wait there is more....



"It's not just the Abscam scandal of the 1980s that he barely dodged, he's a disaster waiting to happen because of his current behavior,"


Melanie Sloan, the liberal head of Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington, was cheered on by Democrats six weeks ago when she helped reveal the Mark Foley scandal. Now she says that "Ms. Pelosi"s endorsement of Rep. Murtha, one of the most unethical members of Congress, show that she may have prioritized ethics reform merely to win votes with no real commitment to changing the culture of corruption."


Mr. Murtha was instrumental in making Rep. Alan Mollohan of West Virginia the top Democrat on the House Ethics Committee. Mr. Bell says Reps. Mollohan and Murtha both helped to slow ethics reform to a crawl for much of the last two years. This spring, Mr. Mollohan was forced to step down from his Ethics Committee position after The Wall Street Journal reported that he had underreported personal assets and steered earmarks to various West Virginia entities founded or controlled by his close political allies.

Mr. Murtha is the ranking Democratic member of the Defense Appropriations Subcommittee and for the past three years has been the House's top recipient of defense industry cash. Few in Washington are surprised that his lobbyist brother, Robert "Kit" Murtha, was until his retirement this summer an enormously successful "earmark specialist" for the Beltway firm KSA Consulting. In recent years, Kit Murtha brought in a mother lode of earmarks for at least 16 defense manufacturers with business before the Appropriations Committee.


http://www.opinionjournal.com/diary/?id=110009248

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2006 :  05:56:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by marfknox



quote:
They would also agree with most of the other stuff you've said in this conversation


So the anarchists and myself agree that Murtha and Pelosi have just made a mockery of the dem pledge to make this the most ethical congress the hill has ever seen. (all before they have even made it to the hill) I can live with that.



quote:
I still have no idea what you are getting at, though it appears you are trying to get at something. Mind writing in plain terms?



Sure. So throughout the world's history do we have a model of a completely ethical and moral government where the people are first and all agendas are just? Yes or no.

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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