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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 11/14/2006 :  08:52:56  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message
Rubin's Tax Gambit
Raising taxes in a housing slump isn't the smartest policy.

Tuesday, November 14, 2006 12:01 a.m. EST

That was fast. A mere two days after Democrats capture Congress claiming they wouldn't raise taxes, former Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin tells them they should do so anyway.

"You cannot solve the nation's fiscal problems without increased revenues," declared Mr. Rubin, the Democratic Party's leading economic spokesman, in a speech last Thursday. He also took a crack at economic forecasting by noting that "I think if you were to increase taxes right now, you would have probably about zero negative effect on the economy." The economics and politics here are worth parsing.

We suppose it's reassuring that Mr. Rubin now thinks the economy is strong enough to withstand a tax increase. That's a switch from his opposition to the 2003 Bush tax cuts, which he predicted would bust the budget and do little for growth. The U.S. economy proceeded to grow by an average of nearly 4% a year for three years following mid-2003, until the recent slowdown due largely to the housing slump.

Deleted most of the article due to possible copyright infringement. Follow Bill's link for the rest of it.

And Bill, haven't we talked about copying whole articles?

Kil


http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110009243

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 11/14/2006 :  08:58:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message
As I recall, the Democrats did say they would raise taxes. Only on the wealthy, however.

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 11/14/2006 :  09:57:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by pleco

As I recall, the Democrats did say they would raise taxes. Only on the wealthy, however.



That was just campaign double talk as all they have to do to raise taxes on us all is nothing. Let the 2003 tax relief expire without renewing and whala, you have just raised taxes on your voting populace without having to go on the record as doing so. They will even campaign in 08 as not raising taxes even though they did. As the voting tax payers we want Rep. John P.Murtha to be able give out more then $95 million worth of pork to his brother, don't we? These guys are shamless.

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25975 Posts

Posted - 11/14/2006 :  10:12:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
So, with the 2003 tax relief still in effect, and nothing else having changed, Bill scott decides already that the Democrats are shameless double-talkers who "did" raise taxes. James Randi will give you a million bucks for demonstrating your talent, Bill.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 11/14/2006 :  11:15:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

So, with the 2003 tax relief still in effect, and nothing else having changed, Bill scott decides already that the Democrats are shameless double-talkers who "did" raise taxes. James Randi will give you a million bucks for demonstrating your talent, Bill.




quote:
So, with the 2003 tax relief still in effect, and nothing else having changed,


What's to change? The repubs are still in the majority, for now.


quote:
Bill scott decides already that the Democrats are shameless double-talkers who "did" raise taxes.


So do you think the taxes cuts will be renewed or not and what do you base this off of? And I was refering mostly to the Murthas and the Stenys of the world as shamless.



quote:
James Randi will give you a million bucks for demonstrating your talent, Bill.



Is that pre or post tax on the million bucks? And where is JR even going to get a million bucks? I don't think she has it nor can she get it. Are they still on the air, BTW?

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 11/14/2006 :  11:53:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message
He, not she. And yes he can.

James Randi

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25975 Posts

Posted - 11/14/2006 :  12:22:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
James Randi still does have his million bucks stashed away in an escrow for which he will provide the legal documentation to anyone who asks. It's not like he can spend it. And the point I was making is that I don't think anyone is in any good position to predict, right now, what the Dems will do with the tax situation. You clearly have made such a prediction, and your basis appears to be as minimal as two guys.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 11/14/2006 :  12:39:04   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

James Randi still does have his million bucks stashed away in an escrow for which he will provide the legal documentation to anyone who asks. It's not like he can spend it. And the point I was making is that I don't think anyone is in any good position to predict, right now, what the Dems will do with the tax situation. You clearly have made such a prediction, and your basis appears to be as minimal as two guys.



OK, my bad. I had JR confused with someone else. Yes, I predict the dems will raise the taxes by not renewing the tax cuts. I could be wrong and I am not putting up any money here so we will have to wait and see. I sure hope they don't raise them as the extra money and relief is much appreciated around my house. So I guess my beef is for the dems to please please dismiss Rubin's rants and renew tax relief. Has any country ever taxed itself into prosperity?

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 11/14/2006 :  13:41:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message
So you would prefer total economic ruin to paying more taxes?
GAO Fiscal Outlook

Has any country ever bankrupted itself into prosperity? Your statement is moronic as taxes drive every country good and bad. Last I checked most of the westernized contries with the highest taxes are at the top of the list in the highest standard of living category.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 11/14/2006 :  14:39:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf

So you would prefer total economic ruin to paying more taxes?
GAO Fiscal Outlook

Has any country ever bankrupted itself into prosperity? Your statement is moronic as taxes drive every country good and bad. Last I checked most of the westernized contries with the highest taxes are at the top of the list in the highest standard of living category.

I totally agree. I remember right after Bush got elected and inherited a booming economy with a huge surplus, he implemented his "tax refund" program. I got a check for like $200. It was so stupid. It wasn't a sum of money that made any noticeable difference in my life, and all I could think of were the beneficial government programs that would have to be cut as a result of it. And of course all the fat cats who really benefitted from that shameless pandering.

Taxes are not the problem. Wasteful spending is. I would have gladly let the government keep that $200 rather than see what happened in New Orleans. But hey, that's what happens when people pretend "less government" is always a good thing.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2006 :  06:42:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert

quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf

So you would prefer total economic ruin to paying more taxes?
GAO Fiscal Outlook

Has any country ever bankrupted itself into prosperity? Your statement is moronic as taxes drive every country good and bad. Last I checked most of the westernized contries with the highest taxes are at the top of the list in the highest standard of living category.

I totally agree. I remember right after Bush got elected and inherited a booming economy with a huge surplus, he implemented his "tax refund" program. I got a check for like $200. It was so stupid. It wasn't a sum of money that made any noticeable difference in my life, and all I could think of were the beneficial government programs that would have to be cut as a result of it. And of course all the fat cats who really benefitted from that shameless pandering.

Taxes are not the problem. Wasteful spending is. I would have gladly let the government keep that $200 rather than see what happened in New Orleans. But hey, that's what happens when people pretend "less government" is always a good thing.






quote:
I totally agree. I remember right after Bush got elected and inherited a booming economy with a huge surplus, he implemented his "tax refund" program. I got a check for like $200. It was so stupid. It wasn't a sum of money that made any noticeable difference in my life, and all I could think of were the beneficial government programs that would have to be cut as a result of it. And of course all the fat cats who really benefitted from that shameless pandering.



Oh get real. You say that $200 makes little difference in your overall financial portfolio, yet somehow your $200 would have saved N.O. That is rich. The government pi$$'s away $200 in less then a nano second. Let's give your $200 back and then we can say Rep. Murtha gave his brother $95,000,200.00 in pork and kick-backs. Just great.



quote:
Taxes are not the problem. Wasteful spending is. I would have gladly let the government keep that $200 rather than see what happened in New Orleans.



This is rich, and shows you do not comprehend the problem. You agree that taxes, or lack there of, are not the problem, but wasteful spending is. So far we agree. But rather then address the problem (wasteful spending) you would rather toss your $200 to the government in the form of tax contributions when you just said in the previous sentence that taxes, or the lack there of, are not the problem. Why throw your hard earned money at what you acknowledge is not the problem (taxes) and dismiss what you acknowledge is the problem? (wasteful spending) So your counterbalance to Rep. Murtha earmarking $95 million to his brother's consulting firm is to raise taxes on the American people? Just great.


quote:
But hey, that's what happens when people pretend "less government" is always a good thing.



Right. Higher taxes for the American people and more pork barrel spending by the fat and sassy hogs in Washington could have saved NO from Katina by mailing your $200 to Mayor Ray Nagan...


"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2006 :  07:43:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message
You sure are dense, Im sure he meant the whole amount and not just the 200$ that he received...

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4954 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2006 :  08:26:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
OK, my bad. I had JR confused with someone else. Yes, I predict the dems will raise the taxes by not renewing the tax cuts. I could be wrong and I am not putting up any money here so we will have to wait and see. I sure hope they don't raise them as the extra money and relief is much appreciated around my house. So I guess my beef is for the dems to please please dismiss Rubin's rants and renew tax relief. Has any country ever taxed itself into prosperity?
This sort of semantic trickery is so bogus. If not renewing tax cuts is the same as raising taxes, then I submit that any bill that has sunset provisions in it is, in fact, a raise in taxes. Thus, the Republican congress and the President raised taxes by passing bills with sunset provisions.
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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2006 :  08:36:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf

You sure are dense, Im sure he meant the whole amount and not just the 200$ that he received...



No, you are dense. HH declares government spending is the problem and not taxes, yet his answer to government spending is more taxes. That is dense and how things operate in the bizzaro world.

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2006 :  10:46:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist

quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
OK, my bad. I had JR confused with someone else. Yes, I predict the dems will raise the taxes by not renewing the tax cuts. I could be wrong and I am not putting up any money here so we will have to wait and see. I sure hope they don't raise them as the extra money and relief is much appreciated around my house. So I guess my beef is for the dems to please please dismiss Rubin's rants and renew tax relief. Has any country ever taxed itself into prosperity?
This sort of semantic trickery is so bogus. If not renewing tax cuts is the same as raising taxes, then I submit that any bill that has sunset provisions in it is, in fact, a raise in taxes. Thus, the Republican congress and the President raised taxes by passing bills with sunset provisions.



Stick to your default answer (it's all the GOP's fault) for all I care. You just demonstrate yourself to be nothing but an ideologue when you do this. I place any congressman (repub or dem) who raises my taxes, so Rep. Murtha can line his brothers pockets etc... etc..., in my voting crosshairs.

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2006 :  12:03:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
This is rich, and shows you do not comprehend the problem. You agree that taxes, or lack there of, are not the problem, but wasteful spending is. So far we agree. But rather then address the problem (wasteful spending) you would rather toss your $200 to the government in the form of tax contributions when you just said in the previous sentence that taxes, or the lack there of, are not the problem.
No, I clearly meant that a lack of taxes is the problem. So your "or lack thereof" assumption is why your having such a hard time making a cogent point. $200 for me alone doesn't accomplish much. $200 from every taxpayer is enough money to have fixed the levees in New Orleans.

Try reading for comprehension next time.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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