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Boron10
Religion Moderator

USA
1259 Posts

Posted - 12/24/2006 :  14:01:23  Show Profile Send Boron10 a Private Message
This is a continuation of GK Paul's thread, Big Bang. Post all further comments here.

Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25970 Posts

Posted - 12/24/2006 :  19:27:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul

Nobody has given me evidence that an unintelligent cause is more likely than an intelligent cause.
It's your job to propose a test for your hypothesis, and then test it. It isn't anyone else's job to do so.
quote:
Given that fact...
Given your faith, you mean. Since you have not tested your hypothesis, the fact that nobody else has tested it is meaningless.
quote:
...I believe an intelligent cause is more likely because the universe contains life and intelligence and it is more likely that intelligence created life and additional intelligence than for non-living unintelligent sources to create life and intelligence.
Purely a faith statement lacking in all logical and scientific rigor. The only fact you have presented is that nobody else has done your homework for you, and without an iota of shame or humility, you jump from your untested guess to the conclusion that pleases you.

And on Christmas Eve, no less. Were I a Christian, you would sicken me, GK Paul.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9664 Posts

Posted - 12/24/2006 :  22:01:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul:
Like Big Bang believing scientists, I believe the universe had an origin.

How many times do we have to tell you, scientists do not believe in Big Bang?

How many times have we told you?
Why don't you understand?
Don't you want to, or is there some pathological reason?


(Edited to fix spelling/grammar)

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 12/24/2006 22:04:29
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Neurosis
SFN Regular

USA
675 Posts

Posted - 12/24/2006 :  23:06:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Neurosis an AOL message Send Neurosis a Private Message



quote:
quote:


Originally posted by filthy

However, I do have to add that Faith (note capital "F") tends to be a very effective stop sign when searching for the truth.




History suggests otherwise.



Actually, the opposite is true. Faith is exactly that -- acceptance without need for further study or evidence.

The Catholic church is consistently 100-500 years late in embracing the larger ground breaking scientific finds. If science threatens any previously concieved ideas of the church it is assumed wrong until it is no longer possible to do so.

Christianity is not alone the other faiths have their examples as well.
Religious belief may inspire the already intellectually curious to know more about how their god did "it", but certainly does not foster questioning if he did "it".

Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson

[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink

Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.]
Edited by - Neurosis on 12/24/2006 23:07:33
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 12/25/2006 :  02:09:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
I just posted this elsewhere but it applies here as well. I won't bother changing it for context, as it's clear as is.

As to something from nothing, claiming a god did it is not an answer if that's what the alternative explanation is. It is akin to a couple thousand years ago claiming gods threw lightning bolts at the Earth because the humans who thought that couldn't imagine electrons and the electrical charges that built up in the atmosphere. It isn't very satisfactory to me to claim a god did it because I don't know where the energy began which matter formed from. It is fascinating to wonder how the energy could exist. Could it have formed or was it always here? Either of those scenarios are hard to comprehend. But I imagine a lot of things in the past were hard to comprehend because we didn't know some of the puzzle pieces we know now.

God of the gaps has been ruled out in the past. There is no reason to keep hypothesizing that explanation. It should be obvious to people by now.
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend

USA
306 Posts

Posted - 12/26/2006 :  06:34:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send GK Paul a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis




quote:
quote:


Originally posted by filthy

However, I do have to add that Faith (note capital "F") tends to be a very effective stop sign when searching for the truth.




History suggests otherwise.



Actually, the opposite is true. Faith is exactly that -- acceptance without need for further study or evidence.

The Catholic church is consistently 100-500 years late in embracing the larger ground breaking scientific finds. If science threatens any previously concieved ideas of the church it is assumed wrong until it is no longer possible to do so.

Christianity is not alone the other faiths have their examples as well.
Religious belief may inspire the already intellectually curious to know more about how their god did "it", but certainly does not foster questioning if he did "it".

"Faith is acceptance without the need for further study or evidence"-- Isaac Newton, Carl Jung, and planetary geologist Ken Tanaka would probably disagree with that definition.

My definition of faith is to get as much scientific, empirical, historical, and intuitive/feeling information as you can and than go with your gut feeling.


"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist

"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton


GK Paul
Edited by - GK Paul on 12/26/2006 07:14:53
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend

USA
306 Posts

Posted - 12/26/2006 :  06:49:04   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send GK Paul a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul:
Like Big Bang believing scientists, I believe the universe had an origin.

How many times do we have to tell you, scientists do not believe in Big Bang?

How many times have we told you?
Why don't you understand?
Don't you want to, or is there some pathological reason?


(Edited to fix spelling/grammar)

OK, than "accept as the best explanation/theory given the available evidence". Its a lot easier for us layman to say believe. I don't feel using the word believe interfered with the main point I was making.


"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist

"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton


GK Paul
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend

USA
306 Posts

Posted - 12/26/2006 :  07:53:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send GK Paul a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal

I just posted this elsewhere but it applies here as well. I won't bother changing it for context, as it's clear as is.

As to something from nothing, claiming a god did it is not an answer if that's what the alternative explanation is. It is akin to a couple thousand years ago claiming gods threw lightning bolts at the Earth because the humans who thought that couldn't imagine electrons and the electrical charges that built up in the atmosphere. It isn't very satisfactory to me to claim a god did it because I don't know where the energy began which matter formed from. It is fascinating to wonder how the energy could exist. Could it have formed or was it always here? Either of those scenarios are hard to comprehend. But I imagine a lot of things in the past were hard to comprehend because we didn't know some of the puzzle pieces we know now.

God of the gaps has been ruled out in the past. There is no reason to keep hypothesizing that explanation. It should be obvious to people by now.

How do you know matter formed from energy. It sounds like your expressing a belief. And Dr. Mabuse would disagree with that.


"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist

"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton


GK Paul
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GeeMack
SFN Regular

USA
1093 Posts

Posted - 12/26/2006 :  08:55:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send GeeMack a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul...

How do you know matter formed from energy. It sounds like your expressing a belief.
There is evidence to support the concept that matter formed from energy, the Big Bang theory. That point has been made clear time and again in all these pages, GK Paul. And in all these pages you've continued to ignore the evidence, you've obviously ignored the links provided which explain that evidence, and you're ignoring most of the individuals here who have been offering to help you obtain and understand that evidence.

You see, GK Paul, what you perceive as rude or insulting is simply these people expressing the truth. And you just can't get that through your skull. Your insolence, rudeness, ingratitude, and ignorance are a great part of what prevents you from understanding the answers to your questions. These good people have been trying to help you. That you should intentionally ignore people trying to help you, then stand there in your willful ignorance claiming to not understand, only shows all the more clearly that you're rude, an ingrate, that you'd treat people like shit and ignore them rather than to actually try to grasp the answers to your questions.

Now if you really do want your questions answered, if you really do want some help understanding the highly evidenced Big Bang theory and how your belief that the universe was created by magic is completely without evidence, why don't you do the mature, responsible thing? Why don't you apologize for your insolence and rudeness? Why don't you thank all these good people for their effort in trying to help you understand? You see, it is not our problem which prevents you from knowing, it is yours. It is not our rudeness, it is yours. It is your willful ignorance, your irrational fear that the answers will rock your comfortable little world of magic and superstition, your refusal to even hear those answers that keeps you separated from the scientific truth. That you should so blatantly refuse to hear, yet continue to ask, only further demonstrates your disdain for the knowledge and for those willing to help you.

We are still waiting for your apology, GK Paul. I think you'll find we are quite a decent, helpful lot of good, kind, and forgiving folks here. You're only hurting yourself by closing off the avenues to the answers. If you really want to know, knock off that childish ignorance and apologize. If you don't really want to know, go ahead and wallow in your faithful ignorance. That is certainly your prerogative. But for the sake of decency, stop wasting your time and ours by continuing to ask the questions.
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Denwash
New Member

USA
18 Posts

Posted - 12/26/2006 :  11:16:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Denwash a Private Message
There is a great deal of evidence that matter formed from energy during the BB event. The current model is the "Gaussian Random Field" which (admittedly after the initial zero-time event) reveals an enormous (by current standards) energy field. This is supported by the background microwave radiation (First predicted in 1948, and confirmed in 1965 by Penzias and Woodrow of Princeton) and further supported by the cosmological red-shift. Although what occured (if you allow the term) before the zero-time event is pure speculation at this point, but it has been confirmed that the existence of matter immediately following the BB is so unlikely, that it is not even considered to be a pont of debate or contention. It is still a matter of debate when matter started to form up from the energy released in the BB event, but most of the current models suggest that neucleogenesis occured soon after the initial event (About 3 minutes), when the temperature dropped enough so that Hudrogen atoms could form. The question of matter becomes very fuzzy before the zero-time event, because it is very difficult to conceive of the nature of matter prior to space/time/causality. To sum up, there has been ample evidence to suggest that there was energy immediately following the BB event, but matter came somewhat later.
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Neurosis
SFN Regular

USA
675 Posts

Posted - 12/26/2006 :  12:56:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Neurosis an AOL message Send Neurosis a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul

quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis




quote:
quote:


Originally posted by filthy

However, I do have to add that Faith (note capital "F") tends to be a very effective stop sign when searching for the truth.




History suggests otherwise.



Actually, the opposite is true. Faith is exactly that -- acceptance without need for further study or evidence.

The Catholic church is consistently 100-500 years late in embracing the larger ground breaking scientific finds. If science threatens any previously concieved ideas of the church it is assumed wrong until it is no longer possible to do so.

Christianity is not alone the other faiths have their examples as well.
Religious belief may inspire the already intellectually curious to know more about how their god did "it", but certainly does not foster questioning if he did "it".

"Faith is acceptance without the need for further study or evidence"-- Isaac Newton, Carl Jung, and planetary geologist Ken Tanaka would probably disagree with that definition.



Doubt it. If you disagree take that up with webster.

quote:

My definition of faith is to get as much scientific, empirical, historical, and intuitive/feeling information as you can and than go with your gut feeling.



Intuitive/feeling is worthless. Going with your gut feeling is not scientific or skeptical and the definition of intuition, so it precludes the scientific, empirical, and historical. It is also Faith. Note also that you have NO scientific, empirical, and historical evidence, so you only have faith any way you look at it.

Faith is contrary to evidence. Nobody cares about your personal feelings, cares, desires, wishes, or gut feelings. Doctors do not intuit diagnoses, they test for the presence of evidence of the diagnosis and choose the best one that fits the data. They do it this way because of how ineffective your way is.

You have faith that your sky daddy is up there and in charge. I don't care, and certainly don't care to change your mind about it. I care about your evidence that proves your sky daddy is up there or at the very least a necessary hypothesis (right wrong or otherwise).

Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson

[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink

Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.]
Edited by - Neurosis on 12/31/2006 00:41:06
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9664 Posts

Posted - 12/31/2006 :  03:02:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
OK, than "accept as the best explanation/theory given the available evidence". Its a lot easier for us layman to say believe. I don't feel using the word believe interfered with the main point I was making.

But you seem to be using believe (accept scientific theory) and believe (faith) interchangeably. They are not the same, so when you do you seem disingenious.

We do not believe in science the way you believe in the Bible.


Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 12/31/2006 :  03:08:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
Mab is right, despite the dishonest propaganda to the contrary, science is not a religion. So, is he simply fooled by such lies, or is he you one of the perpetrators of them? (Sorry, that's not an either/or proposition. He could easily be a willful fool, as willful foolery is the bedrock foundation of religious dogmatism.)

[I slipped up. Edited to change "are you" to "is he," since it's the ignore-Amos God-boy I'm talking about, not someone rational or polite enough to respond, who I could talk to. That realization also answers my questions. God-boy's a known serial liar.]


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 12/31/2006 05:05:08
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Neurosis
SFN Regular

USA
675 Posts

Posted - 12/31/2006 :  07:45:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Neurosis an AOL message Send Neurosis a Private Message
I think GK may not recognize a difference between his belief and an understanding of science as a set of beliefs. I doubt he realizes that he holds the scientific theories to a much higher standard simply because they cannot break the natural laws and have no "god did it" that fixes the holes that do exist. He presumes that god explains everything and thus, has no holes. I would invite GK to study the bible with as much scutiny as he applies to the Big Bang Theory, but I realize he is painfully ignorant of that theory (his own) as he is of real science. Also, I would doubt my request would be recieved. I have seen it too many times, people who know their logic and reason are ungrounded deep within themselves, and thus, refuse to investigate themselves as to preserve it. It is inconcievable the degree of back bending one would go through to preserve an idea that serves them emotionally, yet would not apply even a hint of that leniency to any other competing idea.

Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson

[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink

Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.]
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend

USA
306 Posts

Posted - 01/01/2007 :  04:21:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send GK Paul a Private Message
Well Neurosis you said Intuition/feeling is worthless. Don't tell that to Professional poker players like Doyle Brunson who has 10 world champion titles. HE believes strongly in having a "feel" for the game. Whereas a logical genius like prolific poker author David Sklansky seldom gets to the final table in tournaments. Oh by the way Brunson is a Christian who looks on poker as a sport.

And would you say a homing pigeon uses more feel or logic to find his way home.


"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist

"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton


GK Paul
Edited by - GK Paul on 01/01/2007 04:25:02
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 01/01/2007 :  05:01:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul

Well Neurosis you said Intuition/feeling is worthless. Don't tell that to Professional poker players like Doyle Brunson who has 10 world champion titles. HE believes strongly in having a "feel" for the game. Whereas a logical genius like prolific poker author David Sklansky seldom gets to the final table in tournaments. Oh by the way Brunson is a Christian who looks on poker as a sport.

And would you say a homing pigeon uses more feel or logic to find his way home.

Homing pigeons do not rely upon "gut instinct" to find their way home.

And being something of a poker player myself, neither do the best of them. They rely upon skill and -- are you ready for this? -- cold reading. They might tell you it's a feeling in the gut, but that feeling comes from careful observation of their opponents and the ability to figure odds on the fly.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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