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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 01/18/2007 :  06:56:04   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
I'm not surprised by that. Christ, St. Peter, St. Paul, John the Baptist, and the Rev. Martin Luther King all spent time in jail.





I should have been more exact when I said jail to mean Federal Prison, which eliminates all of your examples.

Now, on to rest of the christians in Federal Prison: are they real christians? What percentage are in there because of persecution for being a christian? What percentage are in there for theft, lying, and/or murder?

Or is it going to be "christians aren't perfect, just forgiven.". If a chrstians kills a non-christian, is this part of god's plan, or does the non-christian gets a free pass into heaven? The christian will get forgiven, so it doesn't seem very fair, but then again no religion I've ever looked at was very fair to the non-believer...

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
Edited by - pleco on 01/18/2007 07:10:07
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 01/18/2007 :  07:02:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:

What were their crimes? Unlawful assembly, blasphemy, heresy, disorderly conduct ???
Public urination? "He who pissth against the wall...."

I wrote an in-depth essay on the alchemists a couple of years back. I'd like to post it, but unfortunatly, it would lead to copywrite hassles. It's a part of a book, not yet published, by someone else.

Kind'a playing with the idea of doing another. The alchemists were some amazing people and well worth study. Some of them sealed their notes and records until long after their deaths because they thought the people of their times were not educated enough to understand them. History tells us that they were not far off the mark.

We'll see. It's a lot of research and I handed my notes over with the manuscript. There's some stuff kicking around on my old wreck of a computer, if I can find it.

Yeh, it might be fun to revisit them.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9666 Posts

Posted - 01/18/2007 :  08:36:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul

quote:
Originally posted by pleco

quote:
BTW Atheists are much less likely than Christians to end up in Federal prisons.

Meh, they aren't real christians, otherwise they wouldn't be in jail.

Probably just atheists lying so as to skew the results of the poll.

I'm not surprised by that. Christ, St. Peter, St. Paul, John the Baptist, and the Rev. Martin Luther King all spent time in jail.

So, you are basically saying that Christ, St. Peter, St. Paul, John the Baptist, and the Rev. Martin Luther King were all Atheists who lied about them being religious. How interesting.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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Neurosis
SFN Regular

USA
675 Posts

Posted - 01/18/2007 :  17:37:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Neurosis an AOL message Send Neurosis a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul

To Tomk80 and Neurosis, I'll refer to Filthy's post on page 4 to answer your posts about alchemy. And I know some here put down the World Book but it says that alchemists work in preparing and studying chemical substances helped the science of chemistry to develop.

In other words chemists should show gratitude to the work of the alchemists instead of criticising them -- especially since as Filthy pointed out many of their findings are still used today.



Uh, GK, I supported your position in the Alchemy argument pertaining to it being respectable in his time and the basis of Chemistry (Al-chemistry).

However, your blinders have caused you to miss the real point of my post, about arguments from authority. here

Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson

[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink

Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.]
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend

USA
306 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2007 :  05:05:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send GK Paul a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul

quote:
Originally posted by pleco

quote:
BTW Atheists are much less likely than Christians to end up in Federal prisons.

Meh, they aren't real christians, otherwise they wouldn't be in jail.

Probably just atheists lying so as to skew the results of the poll.

I'm not surprised by that. Christ, St. Peter, St. Paul, John the Baptist, and the Rev. Martin Luther King all spent time in jail.

So, you are basically saying that Christ, St. Peter, St. Paul, John the Baptist, and the Rev. Martin Luther King were all Atheists who lied about them being religious. How interesting.


Well I was referring to the quote that Atheists are much less likely to end up in federal prisons than Christians. I don't have cut and paste on my software so I guess I'll have to be more specific since I know there are people out there looking for the weakest link in my arguments rather than responding to my main point I was trying to make.


"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist

"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton


GK Paul
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend

USA
306 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2007 :  05:18:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send GK Paul a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by pleco

quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
I'm not surprised by that. Christ, St. Peter, St. Paul, John the Baptist, and the Rev. Martin Luther King all spent time in jail.





I should have been more exact when I said jail to mean Federal Prison, which eliminates all of your examples.

Now, on to rest of the christians in Federal Prison: are they real christians? What percentage are in there because of persecution for being a christian? What percentage are in there for theft, lying, and/or murder?

Or is it going to be "christians aren't perfect, just forgiven.". If a chrstians kills a non-christian, is this part of god's plan, or does the non-christian gets a free pass into heaven? The christian will get forgiven, so it doesn't seem very fair, but then again no religion I've ever looked at was very fair to the non-believer...

Well actually both Paul and Peter were jailed and executed in Rome. I would consider that to be a federal prison.


"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist

"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton


GK Paul
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Ghost_Skeptic
SFN Regular

Canada
510 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2007 :  08:29:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ghost_Skeptic a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul

quote:
Originally posted by pleco

quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
I'm not surprised by that. Christ, St. Peter, St. Paul, John the Baptist, and the Rev. Martin Luther King all spent time in jail.





I should have been more exact when I said jail to mean Federal Prison, which eliminates all of your examples.

Now, on to rest of the christians in Federal Prison: are they real christians? What percentage are in there because of persecution for being a christian? What percentage are in there for theft, lying, and/or murder?

Or is it going to be "christians aren't perfect, just forgiven.". If a chrstians kills a non-christian, is this part of god's plan, or does the non-christian gets a free pass into heaven? The christian will get forgiven, so it doesn't seem very fair, but then again no religion I've ever looked at was very fair to the non-believer...

Well actually both Paul and Peter were jailed and executed in Rome. I would consider that to be a federal prison.



That is a complete non-sequiter - The statistics I was referring to refer to US Federal Prisons not ancient Rome. My point was that the statistics inidcate the Christian claims of Moral superiority over Atheists are bogus and in fact the opposite appears to be true. I do not think there are many Christians in US prisons who have been convicted for crimes against the Roman Empire.

"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. / You can send a kid to college but you can't make him think." - B.B. King

History is made by stupid people - The Arrogant Worms

"The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism." - William Osler

"Religion is the natural home of the psychopath" - Pat Condell

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter" - Thomas Jefferson
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Neurosis
SFN Regular

USA
675 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2007 :  11:09:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Neurosis an AOL message Send Neurosis a Private Message
quote:

Well actually both Paul and Peter were jailed and executed in Rome. I would consider that to be a federal prison.


Proof? Any?

Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson

[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink

Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.]
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2007 :  13:24:29   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by pleco

quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
I'm not surprised by that. Christ, St. Peter, St. Paul, John the Baptist, and the Rev. Martin Luther King all spent time in jail.





I should have been more exact when I said jail to mean Federal Prison, which eliminates all of your examples.

Now, on to rest of the christians in Federal Prison: are they real christians? What percentage are in there because of persecution for being a christian? What percentage are in there for theft, lying, and/or murder?

Or is it going to be "christians aren't perfect, just forgiven.". If a chrstians kills a non-christian, is this part of god's plan, or does the non-christian gets a free pass into heaven? The christian will get forgiven, so it doesn't seem very fair, but then again no religion I've ever looked at was very fair to the non-believer...

What does it matter? Besides, aren't there more Christians in the US than atheists?

Why don't we just agree to help solve the problem why they are there in the first place no matter what their religion.

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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Ghost_Skeptic
SFN Regular

Canada
510 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2007 :  14:07:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ghost_Skeptic a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Robb

What does it matter? Besides, aren't there more Christians in the US than atheists?

Why don't we just agree to help solve the problem why they are there in the first place no matter what their religion.



The numbers I was referring to are adjusted for the portions of the polulation that are Christians or Atheists. The ratio of Christians in prison compared to Christians in the population is couple of orders of magnitude greater than the same ratio for Atheists. This ratio is so large that it can not be attributed entirley to moral superiority of Ateists, but it is a great statistic to throw at those self righteous Christians who seem to think that aheists are inherently evil.

As for looking at the reasons why they are in prison - that would probably provide a lot of other reasons for this statistic.

"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. / You can send a kid to college but you can't make him think." - B.B. King

History is made by stupid people - The Arrogant Worms

"The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism." - William Osler

"Religion is the natural home of the psychopath" - Pat Condell

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter" - Thomas Jefferson
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9666 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2007 :  14:45:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul

quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
So, you are basically saying that Christ, St. Peter, St. Paul, John the Baptist, and the Rev. Martin Luther King were all Atheists who lied about them being religious. How interesting.


Well I was referring to the quote that Atheists are much less likely to end up in federal prisons than Christians. I don't have cut and paste on my software so I guess I'll have to be more specific since I know there are people out there looking for the weakest link in my arguments rather than responding to my main point I was trying to make.

I wasn't attacking your weakest link with that comment, I was making fun of your inability to properly state your points and address our comments. You should take more care writing your posts to minimize the possibility of confusion. Such tactic will service you, since it will force people to address the points you want to make. This is free advice.

Reading up on logic will also help.

Actually, here is the most important advice you will ever get for a debate:
So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperilled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperilled in every single battle. - Sun Tzu, The Art of War

Basically, it means that before you go debating critical thinkers, you should study who we are, and how we think. It will be an invaluable lesson to you.

The same thing applies if you are going to debate evolution: at the moment all your ideas about what evolution is are so bad caricatures that any half decent high-school biology teacher would be in tears, from either laughter or sadness depending on his sense of humour. Whenever you decide to take on evolution, be sure you understand evolutionist's arguments before you attack them, otherwise you will look like a fool.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend

USA
306 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2007 :  05:13:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send GK Paul a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis

quote:

Well actually both Paul and Peter were jailed and executed in Rome. I would consider that to be a federal prison.


Proof? Any?


read Peter's Death under St. Peter in Wikipedia. In my opinion the preponderance of evidence is overwhelming that Peter suffered a matryr's death in Rome. I'll read Paul's death when I get the chance.


"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist

"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton


GK Paul
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend

USA
306 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2007 :  05:28:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send GK Paul a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul

quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
So, you are basically saying that Christ, St. Peter, St. Paul, John the Baptist, and the Rev. Martin Luther King were all Atheists who lied about them being religious. How interesting.


Well I was referring to the quote that Atheists are much less likely to end up in federal prisons than Christians. I don't have cut and paste on my software so I guess I'll have to be more specific since I know there are people out there looking for the weakest link in my arguments rather than responding to my main point I was trying to make.

I wasn't attacking your weakest link with that comment, I was making fun of your inability to properly state your points and address our comments. You should take more care writing your posts to minimize the possibility of confusion. Such tactic will service you, since it will force people to address the points you want to make. This is free advice.

Reading up on logic will also help.

Actually, here is the most important advice you will ever get for a debate:
So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperilled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperilled in every single battle. - Sun Tzu, The Art of War

Basically, it means that before you go debating critical thinkers, you should study who we are, and how we think. It will be an invaluable lesson to you.

The same thing applies if you are going to debate evolution: at the moment all your ideas about what evolution is are so bad caricatures that any half decent high-school biology teacher would be in tears, from either laughter or sadness depending on his sense of humour. Whenever you decide to take on evolution, be sure you understand evolutionist's arguments before you attack them, otherwise you will look like a fool.

So you make fun of people's perceived inadequacies. Don't grade school bullies do the same thing.

Your last paragraph is heavy on generalities -- how 'bout some specific examples. You should know by now that I almost always require specific examples whenever someone puts an unflattering generality my way.


"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist

"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton


GK Paul
Edited by - GK Paul on 02/11/2007 05:57:50
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend

USA
306 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2007 :  06:23:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send GK Paul a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Ghost_Skeptic

quote:
Originally posted by Robb

What does it matter? Besides, aren't there more Christians in the US than atheists?

Why don't we just agree to help solve the problem why they are there in the first place no matter what their religion.



The numbers I was referring to are adjusted for the portions of the polulation that are Christians or Atheists. The ratio of Christians in prison compared to Christians in the population is couple of orders of magnitude greater than the same ratio for Atheists. This ratio is so large that it can not be attributed entirley to moral superiority of Ateists, but it is a great statistic to throw at those self righteous Christians who seem to think that aheists are inherently evil.

As for looking at the reasons why they are in prison - that would probably provide a lot of other reasons for this statistic.

I'm curious what the source of your information is concerning the percentage of Christians vs. Atheists in Federal prison.


"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist

"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton


GK Paul
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GeeMack
SFN Regular

USA
1093 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2007 :  07:48:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send GeeMack a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul...

Your last paragraph is heavy on generalities -- how 'bout some specific examples. You should know by now that I almost always require specific examples whenever someone puts an unflattering generality my way.
When some of us have pointed out that you're a liar, you took that as an insult instead of the legitimate criticism it was meant to be. You asked for specific examples of your lying, and we provided several. Then, rather than having the maturity and integrity to either address those particular points, or to admit to and apologize for your lying, you stuck your fingers in your ears like a 5 year old and pretended to ignore us.

So would it do any good to point out specifically where you've demonstrated a deficiency in your communication skills? You likely won't accept that criticism any better than when you were criticized for lying. You don't seem to have the human decency or respect for the other people in this conversation to do that. You're a rude spoiled brat and an ingrate.

We are still waiting for your apology for your rudeness, your lying, and your generally contemptuous attitude, GK Paul. We're still waiting for you to acknowledge some appreciation for our continued participation in this conversation in spite of your lying, your rudeness, and your disrespect.
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