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 Religion versus vaccines--sound familiar?
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular

USA
609 Posts

Posted - 02/10/2007 :  22:40:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Original_Intent a Private Message
quote:

OI, any increase or decrease in the infectious disease burden affects everyone, regardless of one's moral filter you choose to view infections through. The idea any of these infections only matter to the individual neglects to consider those 6 degrees of separation (to use the concept) between us.



It's a matter of scale and perspective. My child will have to have this vaccine against my wishes to protect her from something that is almost always caused by a personal choice to protect her from something that she may get. However, there is no control over the flu? My kid can't go to school without the vaccine, but can with the flu, Hepetits A/B/C/etc.... , TB, Scarlet Fever, pneumnia, menigitis, etc..... Sure their not supposed to, in school you are suppossed to respect your cohorts. It isn't until after school they learn that it dosen't matter.

And I do not understand the desire to step into a families life over something like this. We can take it a bit further, and re-open the TB hospitals. We need some AIDS hospitals too, because we know not every AIDS patient is reponsible enough to not share needles or to have protected sex.

We also need to start spying on health care workers nad envirornment engineering staff at nursing homes and hospitals. Anyone not following the proper procedures should be noted. Any disease passed to a patient would result in the health care workers involved be arressted. They should also be open to personal liability suits for it.

We shold also have as many police officers as possible outside of as many bars as possible to pull over as many patrons as possible. Drunken Driving is a serious public health issue.

The Fed and the states have a whole lot more to be worried about then HPV vaccines to even be wasting time with it.

Peace
Joe

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25977 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2007 :  00:06:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Original_Intent

It's a matter of scale and perspective.
No, it's a public health matter.
quote:
My child will have to have this vaccine against my wishes to protect her from something that is almost always caused by a personal choice to protect her from something that she may get.
Why is it that your wishes include having your child present a largely preventable health risk to other children?
quote:
However, there is no control over the flu?
The flu doesn't present a risk of cancer.
quote:
My kid can't go to school without the vaccine, but can with the flu, Hepetits A/B/C/etc.... , TB, Scarlet Fever, pneumnia, menigitis, etc.....
How many of those are preventable?
quote:
Sure their not supposed to, in school you are suppossed to respect your cohorts. It isn't until after school they learn that it dosen't matter.
Why do you think it doesn't matter?
quote:
And I do not understand the desire to step into a families life over something like this.
And I don't understand your desire to have your child present a preventable health risk to other children. Do you also not understand why we have health inspectors for restaurants? Why do they step into people's lives to try to prevent them from spreading disease?
quote:
We can take it a bit further, and re-open the TB hospitals. We need some AIDS hospitals too, because we know not every AIDS patient is reponsible enough to not share needles or to have protected sex.
Do we have TB and AIDS vaccines?
quote:
We also need to start spying on health care workers nad envirornment engineering staff at nursing homes and hospitals. Anyone not following the proper procedures should be noted. Any disease passed to a patient would result in the health care workers involved be arressted. They should also be open to personal liability suits for it.
I absolutely agree.
quote:
We shold also have as many police officers as possible outside of as many bars as possible to pull over as many patrons as possible. Drunken Driving is a serious public health issue.
Yes, it is, and your solution is already in place in various localities.
quote:
The Fed and the states have a whole lot more to be worried about then HPV vaccines to even be wasting time with it.
Wasting time on an easily preventable disease.

Your "perspective" pales in comparison to your apparent ignorance of the economics of all of the issues you've brought up. Four billion dollars spread out over many years isn't going to do much to protect the public from drunken drivers, AIDS, or even the flu, but it appears it can prevent thousands of deaths from cervical cancer.

But from your "perspective," we should just let 2,600+ women die every year, since it's not a big problem, and you don't - for unstated reasons - want your daughter to get a few shots.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2007 :  01:09:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
If your child is infected by a rape, or by her future husband, your bad behavior only rationale is false. The more virus in the population, the greater the chance of one's partner giving it to one, monogamous or not.

Hep A vaccine is required west of the Rockies because those are the states with enough disease burden to warrant the vaccine. Flu vaccine isn't yet required because we don't make enough of it. A number of hospitals made flu vaccine required for patient care employees and more are moving that way.

I think there should be a lot more done for drunk driving, in particular stiffer penalties and required treatment for alcoholism for drunk driving offenses. The other things you mentioned are not currently useful interventions.

You can get locked up if you have active TB and you don't follow the medical advice to prevent spreading it. We lock up a few people every year.



Edited by - beskeptigal on 02/11/2007 01:16:15
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2007 :  09:23:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
quote:

What's going to be the solution to the problem that keeps all of our kids and our kids' kids (and so on) safe from the sociopaths and paying less for health-care? If a thousand bucks a year per unvaccinated kid isn't going to do it, what will?


Have your children get the vaccine. I don't understand why this doesn't solve all of your problems.

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular

USA
609 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2007 :  12:25:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Original_Intent a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Originally posted by Original_Intent

It's a matter of scale and perspective.


No, it's a public health matter.


The driving of automobiles is a public health issue, pee-wee sports is a public health issue. Almost everything done could be called a public health issue.

quote:

quote:

My child will have to have this vaccine against my wishes to protect her from something that is almost always caused by a personal choice to protect her from something that she may get.


Why is it that your wishes include having your child present a largely preventable health risk to other children?


Why is it that your wish to vaccinate my child for chicken-pox to protect kids from a disease that is not serious enough in the vast majority of cases to warrant the unknown risk of future problems with very serious health implications from this disease?


As far as HPV, this is an at-risk behavior that affects far fewer people then many other at-risk behaviors. This vaccine has not been around long enough to force it on people.

quote:

quote:

However, there is no control over the flu?


The flu doesn't present a risk of cancer.


No, but it children bring it home to their parents, who spread it at work. If those people work with at-risk people, those people can get pneumonia, cost a ton of public health money, and die.

quote:

quote:

My kid can't go to school without the vaccine, but can with the flu, Hepetits A/B/C/etc.... , TB, Scarlet Fever, pneumnia, menigitis, etc.....


How many of those are preventable?


The spread of all of these through a school is preventable.

quote:

quote:

Sure their not supposed to, in school you are suppossed to respect your cohorts. It isn't until after school they learn that it dosen't matter.

Why do you think it doesn't matter?


Do I really need [sarcasm] tags everywhere?
quote:

Edited by - Original_Intent on 02/12/2007 06:05:09
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9666 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2007 :  16:52:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
Original Intent, there's a [quote]-tag missing somewhere in your post. Could you please insert one in its right place?

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 02/11/2007 16:53:11
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Neurosis
SFN Regular

USA
675 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2007 :  17:46:45   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Neurosis an AOL message Send Neurosis a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Robb

I too am a fan of sex education which includes contarception. I am not a fan of our schools teaching this. It is my job as the parent.


Most parents fail to teach their kids anything, and rely fully on the school system. Therefore, I am a huge fan, even though I am responsible individual, of the public education system including all the facets of education.
quote:
I get your point. This is a discussion for another thread. But in the end it is a matter for my wife and I to decide on.



I agree. From what I have read from your posts, I think you are a rational individual. My point was not to point out the obvious, but to show that as a parent you constantly make decisions to limit and alter the information your children take in, even from trusted sources like the school your child attends or the religious book (or any books) your children reads. It isn't very efective to simply try and limit exposure. I am sure you already realize this. If your children get education in safe sex at school then get a better lesson at home, I think that would be a better scenario.

Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson

[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink

Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.]
Edited by - Neurosis on 02/11/2007 17:58:00
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Neurosis
SFN Regular

USA
675 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2007 :  17:49:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Neurosis an AOL message Send Neurosis a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Original_Intent

quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis

quote:
Originally posted by Original_Intent

And not to muddy the waters... but who says the damn thing is safe? Our government?

Peace
Joe



The same people that say aspirin is safe. Actually, the CDC and FDA have both approved and recommended its use. Also, there is no thimerosal or mercury in the vaccine and it is made from the protein coats, so it is non-infectious. I would say it is safer than the Influenza vaccine.

Waters un-muddied.



The FDA and the CDC... Our government..... When it comes to the government, I am skeptical.

Peace
Joe



So do some research into molecular biology yourself.

Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson

[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink

Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.]
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Neurosis
SFN Regular

USA
675 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2007 :  17:55:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Neurosis an AOL message Send Neurosis a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Original_Intent

Hey Dave, while I agree with part of what you are saying, I do not look at HPV the same as Hep B, measels, mumps, HIV, etc. There is no public risk from HPV other then the choices one makes. However there is a huge risk from TB and we still let these folks walk around. Ditto for Hep A, B, C.


Wrong. Most people who contract HPV will never know they had it. Therefore, no choice but higher rick of cervical cancer.
quote:


Sure, we give them drugs, but we don't force them to take them.

We also do not ENFORCE infection control within healthcare settings. If this was enfored, then VRE would never have become endemic, and could have been stopped, or at least considerably slowed.


Vaccines are infection control.
quote:

Look at the freakin' chicken pox vaccine. I am now forced to get the vaccine before sending my child to school. WHat happens when my child is 30 years old and maybe the anti-bodies are decreased enough so she gets chicken pox. Little chance of any problems at 4, serious long-term to permanent health implications at 34. Chicken pox kills less people then dunkin drivers. TO force that vaccine for public health and not permanently incarcerate these menaces to society is pretty lame.


Then your own argument wins it for HPV, since cervical cancer is a big threat in most women's minds I know.
quote:


As far as the medical costs associated with it, I say we counter it by refusing medical aid to to impaired drivers

Insane.
quote:
and ridding ourselves of frivilous lawsuits.


Not doable.


Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson

[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink

Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.]
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25977 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2007 :  19:59:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Ricky

Have your children get the vaccine. I don't understand why this doesn't solve all of your problems.
Because the vaccine isn't 100% effective. If I had any daughters (and I'm years away from having granddaughters), them getting vaccinated would lower the risk, but not eliminate it entirely. Having everyone they come in contact with vaccinated would lower their risk even further (still wouldn't eliminate it entirely, but every single vaccination brings the risk closer and closer to zero).

To borrow part of an analogy from Original Intent, driving safely not only reduces your own personal risk of injury or death, but also lowers the risk for everyone else on the roads with you.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular

USA
609 Posts

Posted - 02/12/2007 :  06:09:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Original_Intent a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis

quote:
Originally posted by Original_Intent

quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis

quote:
Originally posted by Original_Intent

And not to muddy the waters... but who says the damn thing is safe? Our government?

Peace
Joe



The same people that say aspirin is safe. Actually, the CDC and FDA have both approved and recommended its use. Also, there is no thimerosal or mercury in the vaccine and it is made from the protein coats, so it is non-infectious. I would say it is safer than the Influenza vaccine.

Waters un-muddied.



The FDA and the CDC... Our government..... When it comes to the government, I am skeptical.

Peace
Joe



So do some research into molecular biology yourself.



Front me the resources to do so.

Seriously, the FDA isn't infailable. It functions under politics. It's boss is a political appointee. It has given us more then one bad drug.

Peace
Joe
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular

USA
609 Posts

Posted - 02/12/2007 :  06:24:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Original_Intent a Private Message
And while we are in the middle of this, and to muddle things even further.......

Why are we not requiring men to get this? They carry it from women to women. You will never eliminate it all-together, but if the goal is to eliminate the threat as much as possible, then it only makes sense to innoculate males as well.

Come at me 10 years from now and my reaction may be totally difirent as far as HPV. After a generation of child-bearing with birth defects. After these kids have gone a reasonable length of time without strange ailments.

For chicken pox talk to me 20-50 years down the road, after there is no large problem with adult susceptability to chicken-pox or increased cases if shingles. Sure they can get boosters, but that assumes continuation of the current conditions, wiithout mass population dispersals due to the effects of global warming, plagues, wars, or planetary catastrophes.

Peace
Joe
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular

USA
609 Posts

Posted - 02/12/2007 :  06:48:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Original_Intent a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal

If your child is infected by a rape, or by her future husband, your bad behavior only rationale is false. The more virus in the population, the greater the chance of one's partner giving it to one, monogamous or not.

Rape... Point taken.
If it is almost completely a STD, then a monogamous couple has almost nothing to worry about.

quote:


I think there should be a lot more done for drunk driving, in particular stiffer penalties and required treatment for alcoholism for drunk driving offenses. The other things you mentioned are not currently useful interventions.



They could be very useful interventions. If we take a person on their second DUI, call them a menace to society, which they are, and place them somewhere where their is 0% chance of them committing another DUI, it is 100% effective.

It has been awhile since I have looked at statistics. The last set was in the late 90's, when things were at lower levels. 15,000+ people in DUI related traffic accidents died, 300,000+ injured.
quote:

You can get locked up if you have active TB and you don't follow the medical advice to prevent spreading it. We lock up a few people every year.


Yep, can and a few, not will and as many as possible....... Not enough. This line is actually moot as long as we continue to allow people with MDR TB into the country.

Peace
Joe
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 02/12/2007 :  07:19:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis

Most parents fail to teach their kids anything, and rely fully on the school system. Therefore, I am a huge fan, even though I am responsible individual, of the public education system including all the facets of education.
It seems you want to teach what you think is right about sex education on other peoples children. I do not agree with this.


quote:
I agree. From what I have read from your posts, I think you are a rational individual.
I am sure some would disagree because of my belief in a glorified boogeyman.

quote:
My point was not to point out the obvious, but to show that as a parent you constantly make decisions to limit and alter the information your children take in, even from trusted sources like the school your child attends or the religious book (or any books) your children reads. It isn't very efective to simply try and limit exposure. I am sure you already realize this. If your children get education in safe sex at school then get a better lesson at home, I think that would be a better scenario.

I understand your point. I still think it is best left up to the parents to teach sex education beyond the biology of the whole thing. I would encourage if schools had free literature or educational sources to help parents that want to teach their children about prevention, condoms, abstinence etc.

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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Neurosis
SFN Regular

USA
675 Posts

Posted - 02/12/2007 :  11:39:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Neurosis an AOL message Send Neurosis a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Original_Intent

Front me the resources to do so.

Seriously, the FDA isn't infailable. It functions under politics. It's boss is a political appointee. It has given us more then one bad drug.

Peace
Joe



You only need the internet and a library card.

Everyone realizes the FDA isn't infallible. FDA actually is more about safety. The CDC is more about disease threat and effexctivness of treatment. The thing is, you either have to trust the FDA or go out and learn a little bit about how drugs work and what things are safe according to our current understanding. You don't need a masters degree or anything.

Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson

[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink

Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.]
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