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Neurosis
SFN Regular

USA
675 Posts

Posted - 02/12/2007 :  11:45:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Neurosis an AOL message Send Neurosis a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Original_Intent

And while we are in the middle of this, and to muddle things even further.......

Why are we not requiring men to get this? They carry it from women to women. You will never eliminate it all-together, but if the goal is to eliminate the threat as much as possible, then it only makes sense to innoculate males as well.


We have been discussing it. There is no reason except the threat is to women and thus women are being targeted.

quote:

Come at me 10 years from now and my reaction may be totally difirent as far as HPV. After a generation of child-bearing with birth defects. After these kids have gone a reasonable length of time without strange ailments.


Don't you realize that we know the effects of everything in the vaccine already? Are you saying that you will only take part in health control if a few guinea pigs have gone before you and yours?
quote:

For chicken pox talk to me 20-50 years down the road, after there is no large problem with adult susceptability to chicken-pox or increased cases if shingles. Sure they can get boosters, but that assumes continuation of the current conditions, wiithout mass population dispersals due to the effects of global warming, plagues, wars, or planetary catastrophes.


All of that and your worried about shingles?

Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson

[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink

Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.]
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Neurosis
SFN Regular

USA
675 Posts

Posted - 02/12/2007 :  11:47:04   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Neurosis an AOL message Send Neurosis a Private Message
quote:

They could be very useful interventions. If we take a person on their second DUI, call them a menace to society, which they are, and place them somewhere where their is 0% chance of them committing another DUI, it is 100% effective.

Actually, Australia is already full.

Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson

[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink

Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.]
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Neurosis
SFN Regular

USA
675 Posts

Posted - 02/12/2007 :  11:57:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Neurosis an AOL message Send Neurosis a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Robb

quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis

Most parents fail to teach their kids anything, and rely fully on the school system. Therefore, I am a huge fan, even though I am responsible individual, of the public education system including all the facets of education.
It seems you want to teach what you think is right about sex education on other peoples children. I do not agree with this.


No. I want to teach the kids who have terrible parents (like mine were concerning sex education) to recieve sex education from a public source just like all other forms of education are available. When it comes to health issues I don't think religion gets a pass. Religious people cannot deny their child life-saving surgery because they belive prayer will do and cannot deny their children sex education because they have a crazy idea that fear prevents teen sex.

quote:

quote:
I agree. From what I have read from your posts, I think you are a rational individual.
I am sure some would disagree because of my belief in a glorified boogeyman.


Yes, well I am talking about other areas of life. If one were to believe in a god but make decisions based on evidence first, I still call the thinking rational when it is rational.

quote:
I understand your point. I still think it is best left up to the parents to teach sex education beyond the biology of the whole thing. I would encourage if schools had free literature or educational sources to help parents that want to teach their children about prevention, condoms, abstinence etc.



Nope. Can the parents decide if they would like math to be taught to their child? Can a parent say, well my kid doesn't need algebra just teach her what she needs to know to push the burger picture and give change? The point is that children have a right to education, especially when it involves their health.

Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson

[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink

Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.]
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 02/12/2007 :  12:22:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis

No. I want to teach the kids who have terrible parents (like mine were concerning sex education) to recieve sex education from a public source just like all other forms of education are available. When it comes to health issues I don't think religion gets a pass. Religious people cannot deny their child life-saving surgery because they belive prayer will do and cannot deny their children sex education because they have a crazy idea that fear prevents teen sex.


I understand, but you are defining what a terrible parent is. Next, I will be a terrible parent for teaching my children about God.

quote:
Nope. Can the parents decide if they would like math to be taught to their child? Can a parent say, well my kid doesn't need algebra just teach her what she needs to know to push the burger picture and give change? The point is that children have a right to education, especially when it involves their health.

Math, geography, history, art, english etc. have definable truths that can be taught objectively. When it comes to sexual activity there are no truths, only what people believe to be moral. This idea changes from person to person and who can say who is correct?

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 02/12/2007 :  12:52:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
quote:
When it comes to sexual activity there are no truths, only what people believe to be moral. This idea changes from person to person and who can say who is correct?


Really? Statistics on the number of pregnancies where a condom was used is not a truth? Or how about what STDs there are and how they effect you? That's not a truth? Methods of practicing safe sex are not truths either?

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 02/12/2007 :  12:59:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis

quote:

They could be very useful interventions. If we take a person on their second DUI, call them a menace to society, which they are, and place them somewhere where their is 0% chance of them committing another DUI, it is 100% effective.

Actually, Australia is already full.

It took me a minute to get this, then I got a great chuckle.
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 02/12/2007 :  13:09:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Ricky

quote:
When it comes to sexual activity there are no truths, only what people believe to be moral. This idea changes from person to person and who can say who is correct?


Really? Statistics on the number of pregnancies where a condom was used is not a truth? Or how about what STDs there are and how they effect you? That's not a truth? Methods of practicing safe sex are not truths either?

These are. What I was getting at was how people view sexual activity. Is premaritial sex OK? Is more than one partner OK? Is it ok to have sex at 15, 16, 23? Is homosexuality OK? These are the kinds of things I do not want discussed in school.

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 02/12/2007 :  13:12:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Robb

I understand, but you are defining what a terrible parent is. Next, I will be a terrible parent for teaching my children about God....

The decisions aren't based on judging "terrible parent", they're based on specific parent actions that endanger the child. You have twisted the meaning of the post you replied to.
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 02/12/2007 :  13:15:33   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Robb

...These are. What I was getting at was how people view sexual activity. Is premaritial sex OK? Is more than one partner OK? Is it ok to have sex at 15, 16, 23? Is homosexuality OK? These are the kinds of things I do not want discussed in school.

Whether anything is "OK" is also not the function of sex education. The objection made is that discussing these things is equivalent to condoning them and that is an unsupportable claim. If I educate kids about Hitler or murder, am I condoning those things?

If I teach the children about banking and financial markets is there an expectation much of what I teach is intended to be useful later in their lives? Why would I assume sex education means kids are going to all run out and try it that day?




Edited by - beskeptigal on 02/12/2007 13:19:19
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25975 Posts

Posted - 02/12/2007 :  13:45:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Robb

What I was getting at was how people view sexual activity. Is premaritial sex OK? Is more than one partner OK? Is it ok to have sex at 15, 16, 23? Is homosexuality OK? These are the kinds of things I do not want discussed in school.
If anyone discusses them in my kids' school, I'll be right there with you, Robb, objecting all the way.

However, if all they're teaching is that it's a fact that some people do have premarital sex, or that some people do have more than one partner, or that some people have sex at a young age, or that some people are homosexual, then the school isn't trying to teach values, but just facts that kids do want to know, and will learn (badly) from other kids, if not from you or the school.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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JohnOAS
SFN Regular

Australia
800 Posts

Posted - 02/12/2007 :  16:27:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit JohnOAS's Homepage Send JohnOAS a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis

quote:
Originally posted by Original_Intent
They could be very useful interventions. If we take a person on their second DUI, call them a menace to society, which they are, and place them somewhere where their is 0% chance of them committing another DUI, it is 100% effective.

Actually, Australia is already full.

No it's not. I agree, to quote Mr Creosote.

"Fuck Off, I'm full."

Unfortunately, sending'em here is no guarantee that they won't DUI again. As there are more American's in the world than Australians, I vote that, purely for conservational reasons, you can keep them.

John's just this guy, you know.
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9666 Posts

Posted - 02/12/2007 :  17:07:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Robb

quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis

Most parents fail to teach their kids anything, and rely fully on the school system. Therefore, I am a huge fan, even though I am responsible individual, of the public education system including all the facets of education.
It seems you want to teach what you think is right about sex education on other peoples children. I do not agree with this.

Your children is supposed to function in society. This demands that they are taught the rules of society, and information to help them interact with the rest of society without causing harm to others. Sex is part of interaction with other individuals and thus also with society, hence sex education is a public matter. You cannot guarantee that your children will be monogamous, nor that your childrens future partners will be.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9666 Posts

Posted - 02/12/2007 :  17:38:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Robb

quote:
Originally posted by Ricky

quote:
When it comes to sexual activity there are no truths, only what people believe to be moral. This idea changes from person to person and who can say who is correct?


Really? Statistics on the number of pregnancies where a condom was used is not a truth? Or how about what STDs there are and how they effect you? That's not a truth? Methods of practicing safe sex are not truths either?

These are. What I was getting at was how people view sexual activity. Is premaritial sex OK? Is more than one partner OK? Is it ok to have sex at 15, 16, 23? Is homosexuality OK? These are the kinds of things I do not want discussed in school.

It almost sounds like you believe that sex education in school is to teach how to f**k in order to maximise pleasure, how to stimulate in order to get good lubrication, and to teach your children the most common variants of intercourse. That is simply ridiculous.
Just as ludicrous as the idea that giving a 10 or 12 year old girl the vaccine is a go-ahead to start screwing around.

However, girls need to be taught that they can/should say "no" if their boyfriend suggests something "weird" that they are uncomfortable with. Peer pressure can cause a lot of damage, and (I know examples from Sweden where lack of education resulted in the following: ) if girls don't know that anal sex can cause permanent damage to muscles controlling that particular part of anatomy, they are more likely to give in to it. Once the alarm was raised by a school nurse, the damage was already done to a number of girls.
Boys HAVE to be taught that no matter how horny they are, a "no" from a girl is a no, and forcing themselves on an unwilling person is totally out of the question.

The last sentence here is unfortunately a matter of morale, not sex education, something you expressed should be taught by their parents. I bet a hundred bucks that by the time a boy have forced himself on one of your daughters, you'd agree with me that teaching sex morale in school to make sure everybody got it, wasn't such a bad idea after all.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 02/12/2007 17:48:22
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Neurosis
SFN Regular

USA
675 Posts

Posted - 02/12/2007 :  21:43:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Neurosis an AOL message Send Neurosis a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Robb

I understand, but you are defining what a terrible parent is. Next, I will be a terrible parent for teaching my children about God.


Yes someone who intentionally endangers or refuses to educate their children is a terrible parent. And you would be a terrible parent if you taught your children that all other non-believers are infidels and can be killed and maybe even should be killed. Parents are not free to teach their children anything they want. Parents should not be able to teach racism, bigotry, or fail to teach important information to their children and not be labeled bad parents even terrible parents.
quote:

quote:
Nope. Can the parents decide if they would like math to be taught to their child? Can a parent say, well my kid doesn't need algebra just teach her what she needs to know to push the burger picture and give change? The point is that children have a right to education, especially when it involves their health.

Math, geography, history, art, english etc. have definable truths that can be taught objectively. When it comes to sexual activity there are no truths,


Yes there are. Pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases are real risks of sexual activity. There are ways to reduce these risks and all of those ways should be discussed not just one.
quote:

only what people believe to be moral. This idea changes from person to person and who can say who is correct?



Who said anything about morals?

Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson

[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink

Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.]
Edited by - Neurosis on 02/12/2007 21:44:37
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Neurosis
SFN Regular

USA
675 Posts

Posted - 02/12/2007 :  21:46:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Neurosis an AOL message Send Neurosis a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Robb

quote:
Originally posted by Ricky

quote:
When it comes to sexual activity there are no truths, only what people believe to be moral. This idea changes from person to person and who can say who is correct?


Really? Statistics on the number of pregnancies where a condom was used is not a truth? Or how about what STDs there are and how they effect you? That's not a truth? Methods of practicing safe sex are not truths either?

These are. What I was getting at was how people view sexual activity. Is premaritial sex OK? Is more than one partner OK? Is it ok to have sex at 15, 16, 23? Is homosexuality OK? These are the kinds of things I do not want discussed in school.


Homosexuality should be discussed just like racism. I don't think schools should talk about the other stuff and is not part of sex ed.

Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson

[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink

Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.]
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