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 Religion versus vaccines--sound familiar?
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2007 :  03:38:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
O.I. said:
quote:
Why are we not requiring men to get this? They carry it from women to women. You will never eliminate it all-together, but if the goal is to eliminate the threat as much as possible, then it only makes sense to innoculate males as well.


The primary target for the vaccination is women because they face a potentially life threatening situation. Men are inconvenienced by genital warts, but women can get cancer from them.

And because the company making it can market it better as a way to prevent cancer as opposed to wart prevention.

Besides, what kind of sick person wouldn't want to protect their daughters from cancer? The people who are making this into a social issue make me ill.

edited to add:
There might be some issue with the FDA and what use the vaccine was specifically approved for. Give it a couple of years and you will probably see doctors giving it to men as well.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
Edited by - Dude on 02/13/2007 03:41:10
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular

USA
609 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2007 :  06:12:49   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Original_Intent a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis

quote:
Originally posted by Original_Intent

Front me the resources to do so.

Seriously, the FDA isn't infailable. It functions under politics. It's boss is a political appointee. It has given us more then one bad drug.

Peace
Joe



You only need the internet and a library card.

Everyone realizes the FDA isn't infallible. FDA actually is more about safety. The CDC is more about disease threat and effexctivness of treatment. The thing is, you either have to trust the FDA or go out and learn a little bit about how drugs work and what things are safe according to our current understanding. You don't need a masters degree or anything.



I realize the difirence, but maybe I don't understand the process. Unfortunately they are both political machines.

I again put forth the right to decide what is in the best intrest of my family, in the majority of cases, until the state, through proper procedure, deems me unfit to do so.

Until the log-term affects of this drug are known, then the state should not be forcing on anyone. I will get medievil and allow the taking of hostages to be slain later in the event that the people pushing it are wrong.

Peace
Joe
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular

USA
609 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2007 :  06:38:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Original_Intent a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis

quote:
Originally posted by Original_Intent

And while we are in the middle of this, and to muddle things even further.......

Why are we not requiring men to get this? They carry it from women to women. You will never eliminate it all-together, but if the goal is to eliminate the threat as much as possible, then it only makes sense to innoculate males as well.


We have been discussing it. There is no reason except the threat is to women and thus women are being targeted.

Cool. At least that makes some sense.

quote:

Come at me 10 years from now and my reaction may be totally difirent as far as HPV. After a generation of child-bearing with birth defects. After these kids have gone a reasonable length of time without strange ailments.


Don't you realize that we know the effects of everything in the vaccine already? Are you saying that you will only take part in health control if a few guinea pigs have gone before you and yours?


I realize that the long-term effects of the individual ingredients are known. I haven't seen anywhere where the long-term effects of the mixed ingrdiants are known.

And yes, that is exactly what I am saying. If people want to be guinea pigs, then let them...... As a parent with the responsibility to raise my children into healthy, thinking, moral adults, I will evaluate every risk. My child will have a respect for science, but not a blind faith.

I am lucky, as I have more then few years to worry about the vaccine. As my children near the age, we will know a bit more about it. If my child was 16 now, then we would discuss it, and let her make the choice whether to take it now or wait-and-see.

This is not small-pox. This is a virus that is spread mostly thorugh one's own actions.

quote:

For chicken pox talk to me 20-50 years down the road, after there is no large problem with adult susceptability to chicken-pox or increased cases if shingles. Sure they can get boosters, but that assumes continuation of the current conditions, wiithout mass population dispersals due to the effects of global warming, plagues, wars, or planetary catastrophes.[/quote]

All of that and your worried about shingles?

[/quote]

Have you seen people suffering from shingles? Actually, as I thought I pointed out earlier, who the hell know whats going to happen. Could you imagine a chicken-pox pandemeic running through the adult population. These folks can get deathly ill. They die. They end up with long-term health problems, organ failures, disabilities.......

I just pointed out shingles as, as far as I know, we are all more likely to know someone who had shingles. People who had chicken-pox get shingels too. I have had the misfortune of seeing adults who never had chicken-pox, get chicken-pox.

Peace
Joe
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular

USA
609 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2007 :  06:40:29   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Original_Intent a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis

quote:

They could be very useful interventions. If we take a person on their second DUI, call them a menace to society, which they are, and place them somewhere where their is 0% chance of them committing another DUI, it is 100% effective.

Actually, Australia is already full.



There are plenty of deserted islands, and plenty of barren desert.

Peace
Joe
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular

USA
609 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2007 :  06:45:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Original_Intent a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by JohnOAS

quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis

quote:
Originally posted by Original_Intent
They could be very useful interventions. If we take a person on their second DUI, call them a menace to society, which they are, and place them somewhere where their is 0% chance of them committing another DUI, it is 100% effective.

Actually, Australia is already full.

No it's not. I agree, to quote Mr Creosote.

"Fuck Off, I'm full."

Unfortunately, sending'em here is no guarantee that they won't DUI again. As there are more American's in the world than Australians, I vote that, purely for conservational reasons, you can keep them.



Nah, I don't want to pass our problems off on you, I want to pass them off on themselves........ Away from everyone but like-minded folks.

Peace
Joe
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular

USA
609 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2007 :  06:47:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Original_Intent a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dude

O.I. said:
quote:
Why are we not requiring men to get this? They carry it from women to women. You will never eliminate it all-together, but if the goal is to eliminate the threat as much as possible, then it only makes sense to innoculate males as well.


The primary target for the vaccination is women because they face a potentially life threatening situation. Men are inconvenienced by genital warts, but women can get cancer from them.

And because the company making it can market it better as a way to prevent cancer as opposed to wart prevention.

Besides, what kind of sick person wouldn't want to protect their daughters from cancer? The people who are making this into a social issue make me ill.

edited to add:
There might be some issue with the FDA and what use the vaccine was specifically approved for. Give it a couple of years and you will probably see doctors giving it to men as well.





I wasn't really concerned about the genital warts, but them spreading it to other women.

Peace
Joe
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Neurosis
SFN Regular

USA
675 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2007 :  10:28:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Neurosis an AOL message Send Neurosis a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Original_Intent


I realize the difirence, but maybe I don't understand the process. Unfortunately they are both political machines.

I again put forth the right to decide what is in the best intrest of my family, in the majority of cases, until the state, through proper procedure, deems me unfit to do so.


On as many issues as is possible you are right. On the issues that effect others and the issues that may endanger or otherwise limit your children then no you don't.

quote:

Until the log-term affects of this drug are known, then the state should not be forcing on anyone. I will get medievil and allow the taking of hostages to be slain later in the event that the people pushing it are wrong.




Again. We understand the long term effects of all of the components of that are in the vaccine. We have medical knowledge that we use to create vaccines and drugs, it is not as though there is a group of mad scientist over at the CDC trying to 'experiment' on humans. In new drug trials that we have never used before, we may not realize all of the possible dangers until a few years down the road, and I would understand someone not interested in the drug. In such as case, it is a personal choice and since most healthy people don't take drugs it is not a problem. Vaccines are not the same, especially not this one.

Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson

[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink

Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.]
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Neurosis
SFN Regular

USA
675 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2007 :  10:29:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Neurosis an AOL message Send Neurosis a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Original_Intent

quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis

quote:

They could be very useful interventions. If we take a person on their second DUI, call them a menace to society, which they are, and place them somewhere where their is 0% chance of them committing another DUI, it is 100% effective.

Actually, Australia is already full.



There are plenty of deserted islands, and plenty of barren desert.



We have plenty of bullets too, lets just shoot them all.

Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson

[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink

Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.]
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Neurosis
SFN Regular

USA
675 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2007 :  10:39:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Neurosis an AOL message Send Neurosis a Private Message
quote:


I realize that the long-term effects of the individual ingredients are known. I haven't seen anywhere where the long-term effects of the mixed ingrdiants are known.


You really have no knowledge of chemistry do you?
quote:

And yes, that is exactly what I am saying. If people want to be guinea pigs, then let them...... As a parent with the responsibility to raise my children into healthy, thinking, moral adults, I will evaluate every risk. My child will have a respect for science, but not a blind faith.


You really have no understanding of medical science do you?
quote:

I am lucky, as I have more then few years to worry about the vaccine. As my children near the age, we will know a bit more about it. If my child was 16 now, then we would discuss it, and let her make the choice whether to take it now or wait-and-see.


If she paid as much attention in science class as I did, she would probably say the same the same as I am. The vaccine (not the same as a un-trialed drug) has no dangerous components. You may as well refuse to drink a new soda for ten years till its been tested. The same FDA approves food.
quote:

This is not small-pox. This is a virus that is spread mostly thorugh one's own actions.

No. It is spread by sexual contact and mostly has no noticable symptoms. A person can contract it and never know, then spread in 15 years later to another partner. Small-pox could be contained far more easily actually.
quote:

Have you seen people suffering from shingles?

Yes, and it is no where near as bad as the apocalypes as you implied.
quote:

Actually, as I thought I pointed out earlier, who the hell know whats going to happen. Could you imagine a chicken-pox pandemeic running through the adult population. These folks can get deathly ill. They die. They end up with long-term health problems, organ failures, disabilities.......


You really do not understand immunology do you? Everyone who got the vaccine would be less likely to get shingles. Even those that caught it as a child have the SAME succeptability as the vaccinated, and the non vaccinated and non exposed have the GREATEST succeptablity. You argument here is way wrong.


Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson

[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink

Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.]
Edited by - Neurosis on 02/13/2007 10:43:56
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25975 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2007 :  19:21:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Original_Intent

There are plenty of deserted islands, and plenty of barren desert.
Comedy Central is running a promo for the Sarah Silverman show these days in which she says,
We can put a man on the Moon, which means we could put a man with AIDS on the Moon...

...which means that someday, we can put all the people with AIDS on the Moon.
It's brutally coldhearted.

Plus, you never did address the costs involved, as I was trying to suggest you should. We can save thousands of lives every year for less than $400 million a year for Guardasil. Is the same true of drunk driving, chicken pox (and shingles - which you should know is the re-activation of chicken pox virus that's been dormant for years), TB, AIDS, the flu, or anything else you've mentioned?

If you can show that we can save more lives with less money by doing something else, I will happily advocate for shelving mandatory Guardasil vaccinations, and advocate in favor of whatever it is you've got in mind.

(Deporting people to a quarantine island will cost the U.S. taxpayers billions in lawsuits the first few years alone.)

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Neurosis
SFN Regular

USA
675 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2007 :  21:31:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Neurosis an AOL message Send Neurosis a Private Message
quote:
(Deporting people to a quarantine island will cost the U.S. taxpayers billions in lawsuits the first few years alone.)


No. Dictator Joe will have already eliminated the court system, remember?

Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson

[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink

Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.]
Edited by - Neurosis on 02/13/2007 21:31:45
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25975 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2007 :  21:51:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis

No. Dictator Joe will have already eliminated the court system, remember?
Not if he's true to his "Original Intent" moniker, in which the courts exist to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority. Unless I read that wrong.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular

USA
609 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2007 :  22:34:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Original_Intent a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis

quote:


I realize that the long-term effects of the individual ingredients are known. I haven't seen anywhere where the long-term effects of the mixed ingrdiants are known.


You really have no knowledge of chemistry do you?


Basic knowledge.
quote:
quote:

And yes, that is exactly what I am saying. If people want to be guinea pigs, then let them...... As a parent with the responsibility to raise my children into healthy, thinking, moral adults, I will evaluate every risk. My child will have a respect for science, but not a blind faith.


You really have no understanding of medical science do you?


What does medical science have to do with the aboce statement?
quote:
quote:

I am lucky, as I have more then few years to worry about the vaccine. As my children near the age, we will know a bit more about it. If my child was 16 now, then we would discuss it, and let her make the choice whether to take it now or wait-and-see.


If she paid as much attention in science class as I did, she would probably say the same the same as I am. The vaccine (not the same as a un-trialed drug) has no dangerous components. You may as well refuse to drink a new soda for ten years till its been tested. The same FDA approves food.


Oh boy, the FDA approved it, it must be safe, just like:
Vioxx (sp)
Olestra
aspartame
Splenda
trans-fats.....

That's without looking for trouble.

quote:
quote:


This is not small-pox. This is a virus that is spread mostly thorugh one's own actions.

No. It is spread by sexual contact and mostly has no noticable symptoms. A person can contract it and never know, then spread in 15 years later to another partner. Small-pox could be contained far more easily actually.


Eh, sexual contact falls under "one's own actions"
quote:
quote:

Have you seen people suffering from shingles?

Yes, and it is no where near as bad as the apocalypes as you implied.


Apocolypse... Where the hell did you read that? And no shingles won't kill ya, but it will make you wish you were dead.
quote:

quote:

Actually, as I thought I pointed out earlier, who the hell know whats going to happen. Could you imagine a chicken-pox pandemeic running through the adult population. These folks can get deathly ill. They die. They end up with long-term health problems, organ failures, disabilities.......


You really do not understand immunology do you? Everyone who got the vaccine would be less likely to get shingles. Even those that caught it as a child have the SAME succeptability as the vaccinated, and the non vaccinated and non exposed have the GREATEST succeptablity. You argument here is way wrong.


Where is your data for 40 years from the first heavey usage of the chicken-pox vaccine? Where is the proof? Can you see the future? That is the problem with science. It demands blind-faith of theory. It assumes A is A, and will be. They demand proof, but expect people to buy there assertions without proof.

No shit that the exposure to the chicken pox, or to the vaccine lessend the chance of chicken pox in adult life. Does the chicken pox vaccine decrease the chance down to the level of an actual case of the chicken pox? If not, is a booster going to be available 40 years down the road?

The exposed have a better chance of not having a problem down the road.

Peace
Joe



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Original_Intent
SFN Regular

USA
609 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2007 :  22:57:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Original_Intent a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

quote:
Originally posted by Original_Intent

There are plenty of deserted islands, and plenty of barren desert.
Comedy Central is running a promo for the Sarah Silverman show these days in which she says,
We can put a man on the Moon, which means we could put a man with AIDS on the Moon...

...which means that someday, we can put all the people with AIDS on the Moon.
It's brutally coldhearted.

Plus, you never did address the costs involved, as I was trying to suggest you should. We can save thousands of lives every year for less than $400 million a year for Guardasil. Is the same true of drunk driving, chicken pox (and shingles - which you should know is the re-activation of chicken pox virus that's been dormant for years), TB, AIDS, the flu, or anything else you've mentioned?

If you can show that we can save more lives with less money by doing something else, I will happily advocate for shelving mandatory Guardasil vaccinations, and advocate in favor of whatever it is you've got in mind.

(Deporting people to a quarantine island will cost the U.S. taxpayers billions in lawsuits the first few years alone.)



I don't know how to do it, but it needs to be done. Getting it done is what we pay the government to do. The paraylisis on issues deemed "dificult" is ludicrous.

I am not PC. There is nothing wrong with penal colonies and indentured servitude. There is nothing stopping states from quaranrining. Penal colonies are simple and cheap. Toss them there, drop some food. Not to much difirent then a prison, but a lot cheaper. The states have the power to do any of it.

Quarantine for TB is a publice health issue, especially when the people are not taking the treatment. Drunk driving is a criminal issue.

I am not scared of AIDS (for myself). I do not participate in at risk-behavior. It doesn't spread easily even with blood to blood contact (needle-stick to the finger). TB... well that's a bit difirent. Dosen't bother me as much as I am a born-again travel agent and not a paramedic running around in cesspools. Hepatitis always bothered me, because that you can catch pretty easily.

I am not in favor of shipping out everyone who looks or acts funny, is sick, etc. I think our prisons are full of people who do not belong there. However, violent people who prey on society, or have little regard for the safety of scoiety do not belong in society, and do not deserve socieites support. Society has enough problems to take care of other then supporting these folks.

The point I was trying to make no one is looking to the big problems (other then the state telling me what is best for my children without showing me the long-term proof that their option is better then ours.)

10 years from now I may be a HPV advocate, right now I am skeptical.

Peace
Joe




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Original_Intent
SFN Regular

USA
609 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2007 :  23:06:49   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Original_Intent a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis

No. Dictator Joe will have already eliminated the court system, remember?
Not if he's true to his "Original Intent" moniker, in which the courts exist to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority. Unless I read that wrong.


Close. The courts are not there to protect the minority, but everyone regardless of status, under the tenents of justice.

However, A wise man once asked (sort of, kind oof, in a way)(It's been too long, maybe I will find the book......)(may have been an English Judge)

If Justice is mearly the will of the strong over the will of the weak, and morality the will of the weak over the strong, what happens when the strong lose that morality?

Peace
Joe
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