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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 02/16/2007 :  22:39:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
beskeptigal said:
quote:
Well you were the one that seemed to be promoting Libertarians, Dude. If you weren't then don't answer the questions. At TAM5 by a show of hands Libertarians in the audience were in the majority. I assume by the poll here there are some on the SFN forum. I'd like to hear any of them defend their belief in the Libertarian Party line.



I'm promoting libertarians? WTF are you smoking?

You are just looking to pick a fight with someone.

Scroll back and read my first post in this very thread.

Wait, I'll quote myself to save you the trouble...

Dude said:
quote:
I agree with many libertarian principles, but I voted "disagree".

There is no one single philosophical-political outlook that covers everything well enough to be "THE" logical choice.



And your nonsense about asking people to defend the official libertarian party line just because they may self describe as libertarian is utter bullshit.

But lets examine some of the things libertarians advocate for:

Small government, no bloated bureaucracy.

Personal privacy.

Equal rights under law for all people, regardless or race, religion, or sexual orientation.

Less tax burden on all people (by reducing the size of the federal government).

Pro-choice.

Pro-science (and pro-evidence generally).

Some things that I disagree with them about are their economic positions.

I don't think we can eliminate all federal welfare and rely only on charity.

I don't think we can allow unrestrained capitalism, there must be a fair system of economic justice to balance a free-market.


At any rate, it is a mistake to say that libertarians don't have anything to contribute to the general political discussion.

It is also ammusing to see people here treating libertarians in the same way republicans treat liberals in other places.



Personally I agree with some of the things the libertarian party takes a position on, and disagree with others. Same for the democrat and republican parties.

If I had to pick a party that I like best I'd have to say the Green Party is pretty close to my views on more issues than any other single party.




Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2007 :  01:07:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
Beskeptigal, you could atleast acknowledge your error.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2007 :  03:57:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dude

beskeptigal said:
quote:
Well you were the one that seemed to be promoting Libertarians, Dude. If you weren't then don't answer the questions. At TAM5 by a show of hands Libertarians in the audience were in the majority. I assume by the poll here there are some on the SFN forum. I'd like to hear any of them defend their belief in the Libertarian Party line.



I'm promoting libertarians? WTF are you smoking?

You are just looking to pick a fight with someone.

Scroll back and read my first post in this very thread.

Wait, I'll quote myself to save you the trouble...

Dude said:
quote:
I agree with many libertarian principles, but I voted "disagree".

There is no one single philosophical-political outlook that covers everything well enough to be "THE" logical choice.



And your nonsense about asking people to defend the official libertarian party line just because they may self describe as libertarian is utter bullshit.

But lets examine some of the things libertarians advocate for:

Small government, no bloated bureaucracy.

Personal privacy.

Equal rights under law for all people, regardless or race, religion, or sexual orientation.

Less tax burden on all people (by reducing the size of the federal government).

Pro-choice.

Pro-science (and pro-evidence generally).

Some things that I disagree with them about are their economic positions.

I don't think we can eliminate all federal welfare and rely only on charity.

I don't think we can allow unrestrained capitalism, there must be a fair system of economic justice to balance a free-market.


At any rate, it is a mistake to say that libertarians don't have anything to contribute to the general political discussion.

It is also ammusing to see people here treating libertarians in the same way republicans treat liberals in other places.



Personally I agree with some of the things the libertarian party takes a position on, and disagree with others. Same for the democrat and republican parties.

If I had to pick a party that I like best I'd have to say the Green Party is pretty close to my views on more issues than any other single party.

I just don't get it. People get angry when you think they are Libertarian. What's the insult?

However, I have no issue with you clarifying your position.

You did say, however, " I agree with many libertarian principles, but I voted "disagree"....There is no one single philosophical-political outlook that covers everything well enough to be "THE" logical choice." as you found for yourself.

The reason I keep asking someone to defend that platform is I believe the platform was a very far stretch from the cliche's like you posted which are touted as Libertarian values.

It isn't a personal thing and heaven's no I don't want another fight with anyone. I'm just trying to find someone who does consider themselves Libertarian to reconcile the ideal with the real.

The value of less government is not what stood out in the platform. What stood out was their stated goal for everything and I do mean everything from police and fire to the street in front of your house should be in private hands.

So far, even people who do say they are Libertarian get mad when I ask about the platform.

Then when half the TAM attendees raised their hand and said they were Libertarian, it seemed logical there were a number of Libertarians around.

I don't think you can say any group has nothing to offer. So I didn't make that comment or disagree with yours.

I think the values you listed are values of Progressive Democrats as much as they are Libertarian.









Edited by - beskeptigal on 02/27/2007 04:03:19
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13457 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2007 :  09:16:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message
quote:
beskeptigal:
I think the values you listed are values of Progressive Democrats as much as they are Libertarian.

Progressive Democrats are civil libertarians. Where we part company with the Libertarian Party is on economics. They are liaise faire capitalists who believe that regulations are not needed as the market will correct itself with no need for any regulation. And of course, for some reason they think a social net is unnecessary, and that private enterprise will somehow be (magically) motivated to take care of the problems of the less fortunate. (That is where I start to wonder what they are smoking?) They view all such government programs as counter productive.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9666 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2007 :  15:50:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal

Well you were the one that seemed to be promoting Libertarians, Dude. If you weren't then don't answer the questions. At TAM5 by a show of hands Libertarians in the audience were in the majority. I assume by the poll here there are some on the SFN forum. I'd like to hear any of them defend their belief in the Libertarian Party line.
Why don't you start a real political affiliation-poll here on SFN to see if your assumption holds water?

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25973 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2007 :  23:45:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
If I remember correctly, our most-Libertarian member was Snake. I recall one thread in which I brought up a bunch of potential abuses of power at a local community level (police corruption, factories abusing employees, etc.), and her response was simply - and idealistically - that the community should take care of those problems themselves - or not, if that's how they chose to live (every community should pick its own form of government, so you could potentially get a town run as a communist utopia right next to a town led by a dictator - wouldn't that be fun?).

It seemed so tremendously idealistic. Labor disputes between workers and management shouldn't happen because there should be no "management" as we know it - every worker should simply do his/her job, regardless of their position, and that's that. There doesn't need to be a "president" or any "vice presidents" running a company, because the workers all know what's best for them as a community, as so will do their jobs to meet those goals without need of the "elite" to govern them.

Police? Not needed, since the citizens are capable of protecting themselves and each other. Firemen? All the citizens need is fire-fighting equipment, because any time a fire happens, they'll all get together to combat it as a community.

The military of course would still be needed to defend the entire country from non-Libertarians everywhere. But visas and passports? Screw 'em, since each community will choose, independently, how to deal with people who come in from the "outside."

Perhaps these things are over-the-top even for Libertarians, but this is the impression I got after listening to Snake hold forth on the marvel that is Libertarianism. Of course, she may not have been the most-reliable source...

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2007 :  03:59:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
There was a majority show of hands at TAM when the question was asked, who was a Libertarian. There were quite a few on the BA's website before they combined with UT.


Edited by - beskeptigal on 02/28/2007 04:00:33
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13457 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2007 :  08:27:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message
quote:
Dave:
Perhaps these things are over-the-top even for Libertarians, but this is the impression I got after listening to Snake hold forth on the marvel that is Libertarianism. Of course, she may not have been the most-reliable source...

To say the least...

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13457 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2007 :  08:29:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal

There was a majority show of hands at TAM when the question was asked, who was a Libertarian. There were quite a few on the BA's website before they combined with UT.




I thought it was about a third. Not that the difference matters much...

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2007 :  08:32:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Kil

quote:
Dave:
Perhaps these things are over-the-top even for Libertarians, but this is the impression I got after listening to Snake hold forth on the marvel that is Libertarianism. Of course, she may not have been the most-reliable source...

To say the least...




Yeah, when Dave said that I thought that someday I'd ask Kil or @tomic more about Norma. She is one of a kind.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2007 :  08:58:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message
beskeptigal wrote:
quote:
There was a majority show of hands at TAM when the question was asked, who was a Libertarian. There were quite a few on the BA's website before they combined with UT.
Dave's characterization of Libertarian beliefs seemed pretty accurate, however, that is the most extreme version of Libertarian views. But you gotta think, how many people who call themselves "Libertarian" do it because their views are closer to Libertarianism than Dem or Republican?

Take Penn Jillette: he seems extreme at times, such as when he publicly encourages no taxes. But then he also has said things which show he believes in some form of small government. Examples of this would be when he praises how regulations of water have made our tap water so healthy (he did this while denouncing and mocking people who buy bottled water) or when he talked about regulations on foods (while denouncing critics of genetic engineering). He seems to think that some government is good, but that when government gets big it is simply not competent enough to do helpful things without simultaneously doing hurtful things.

So I wonder about how extreme the views are of all those people who raised their hands at TAM5, because from my personal experience, I've met more moderate self-declared Libertarians than extreme ones.

But the extreme ones are nuts. Seriously loo loo. ;-)

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

Edited by - marfknox on 02/28/2007 08:59:42
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2007 :  09:22:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
Take the quiz and find out if you're libertarian.
http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25973 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2007 :  09:40:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
That quiz always comes out "centrist" for me.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2007 :  09:50:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
They left out right or left when they wrote about political philosphies at the bottom. I tend to agree with most Libertarian ideas. I think taxes can be cut drastically to remove the advantage the very wealthy have over the rest of us. They can drastically cut the "Defense" budget, and the lock-up-the-poor budget. They can end the drug laws. The idea that "The Market" is some miraculous thing that god can handle perfectly without human intervention is absurd. "The Market" doesn't exist without human intervention.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2007 :  09:56:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
Well, Duh, I guess I read that wrong. They do have rigbt and left.


Right (Conservative)

Conservatives tend to favor economic freedom, but frequently support laws to restrict personal behavior that violates "traditional values." They oppose excessive government control of business,
while endorsing government action to defend morality and the traditional family structure. Conservatives usually support a strong military, oppose bureaucracy and high taxes, favor a free-market economy, and endorse strong law enforcement.

Left (Liberal)

Liberals usually embrace freedom of choice in personal matters, but tend to support significant government control of the economy. They generally support a government-funded "safety net" to help the disadvantaged, and advocate strict regulation of business. Liberals tend to favor environmental regulations, defend civil liberties and free expression, support government action to promote equality, and tolerate diverse lifestyles.

Libertarian

Libertarians support maximum liberty in both personal and economic matters. They advocate a much smaller government; one that is limited to protecting individuals from coercion and violence. Libertarians tend to embrace individual responsibility, oppose government bureaucracy and taxes, promote private charity, tolerate diverse lifestyles, support the free market, and defend civil liberties.

Statist (Big Government)
Statists want government to have a great deal of power over the economy and individual behavior. They frequently doubt whether economic liberty and individual freedom are practical options in
today's world. Statists tend to distrust the free market, support
high taxes and centralized planning of the economy, oppose diverse lifestyles, and question the importance of civil liberties.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



Edited by - Gorgo on 02/28/2007 10:00:03
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