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tomk80
SFN Regular

Netherlands
1278 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2007 :  03:36:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit tomk80's Homepage Send tomk80 a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis

quote:
To cap that off, i think that evolution-deniers (and by correlation christians) think that natural selection involves the survival of the strongest.


Another version of this is to assume that evolution requires everyone to kill everyone else so that they can live, instead of the obvious need to coexist in order to reduce fatalities in both species.


It is for this reason that I would like to introduce the catch-phrase "survival of the libido" to describe natural selection

I think it was already mentioned, but I think one of the most constant myths regarding evolution for the past 150 or so years is that it is on its way out in the scientific community.

Tom

`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll-
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2007 :  08:16:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert

quote:
Originally posted by Robb
If there is no point to life, what does it matter if we destroy the earth? Why does anything matter?

Because being alive is more fun than being dead.

Seriously, I've never understood this christian "logic." If life has no ultimate purpose, no ultimate meaning, do christians really think most people would choose to never exist at all? And if I'm grateful for the chance to exist for a short while, why wouldn't I want to extend that same chance to future generations?

Just because we get only one life doesn't mean that most people choose to spend it being selfish assholes.



Because if someone chooses to be a selfish asshole it is as valid a choice as yours not to be one.

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2007 :  08:21:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis

Duh! You asked about my opinion, did you expect something that was not my opinion? You may claim we rock if you want, I have no problem with that. I call actions that can kill me and my family and perhaps everyone else on the planet suck-face actions, but that is just me.
Exactly my point.

quote:
Are you saying that if your god wasn't real you would just go on a killing spree and destroy the Earth?
No, but what would be wrong with it if I chose to?


Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2007 :  08:29:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert

quote:
Originally posted by pleco
I would bet they would say their faith isn't strong enough. That feller Abraham in bible almost did it...but he had MegaFaith.

Ah, but even Abraham hesitated.

If, as Christians maintain, life only has value so far as god decrees it, then as soon as god ordered Isaac's life be taken, Abraham should have felt no further attachment to him. God effectively ceased assigning meaning to Isaac's life. It should have been no harder than killing an infidel, or slaughtering a lamb, or mowing the lawn. The very fact that is was difficult for Abraham to kill his son indicates that something else is at work than simply what god wills.

Christians have no proper explanation for this "something else."



It's human emotions. Why would you think that even if God told me to kill my child, I would just do it without feeling sorrow, fear, loss etc. We do have emotions that God gave us. There are many things God wants us to do and we don't out of fear or something else. I would think that if Abraham could kill his son without emotion something would be wrong.

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2007 :  08:34:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Kil

quote:
Robb:
If there is no point to life, what does it matter if we destroy the earth? Why does anything matter?


Ahhhh, but it could be that we are evolutionarily driven to not destroy the Earth?
This is just a question, do not read anything into it. My understanding is that evolution has no purpose it just happens (I may be wrong). How can you assign a purpose to it now?

Also, if this is so, why is the earth in such a bad shape.

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2007 :  08:35:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by pleco

quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
The very fact that is was difficult for Abraham to kill his son idicates that something else is at work than simply what god wills.

Christians have no proper explanation for this "something else.



I would say to this that it is the sinful nature which distracts and causes hesitation, for almost all have sinned because of Adam and Eve.
All have sinned because we chose to sin.

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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GeeMack
SFN Regular

USA
1093 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2007 :  09:31:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send GeeMack a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Robb...
quote:
Originally posted by Kil...

Ahhhh, but it could be that we are evolutionarily driven to not destroy the Earth?
This is just a question, do not read anything into it. My understanding is that evolution has no purpose it just happens (I may be wrong). How can you assign a purpose to it now?
Kil didn't "assign a purpose" to evolution, but your misrepresenting his comment isn't surprising. That kind of dishonesty seems common among those who desperately cling to their belief in magic at the expense of understanding science.

Evolution is a process which certainly does occur and which, as a process, has no purpose. Through the process of evolution, we, as every living thing does, have developed certain behaviors. In general, the behaviors most likely to be passed on to future generations are those which provide an advantage towards the continuation of a species (need I say, "duh"?). Kil is suggesting that if a concern for not destroying the Earth is advantageous towards our survival as a species, then that concern might be a behavior which has developed in humans through the process of evolution.
quote:
Also, if this is so, why is the earth in such a bad shape.
No single trait or behavior takes top priority in the development of a species through the process of evolution. Obviously traits other than the concern for not destroying the Earth have also become part of human behavior. Perhaps some of those other behaviors have resulted in our actions (and/or negligence) which causes damage to the quality of our environment.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13457 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2007 :  09:45:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Robb

quote:
Originally posted by Kil

quote:
Robb:
If there is no point to life, what does it matter if we destroy the earth? Why does anything matter?


Ahhhh, but it could be that we are evolutionarily driven to not destroy the Earth?
This is just a question, do not read anything into it. My understanding is that evolution has no purpose it just happens (I may be wrong). How can you assign a purpose to it now?

Also, if this is so, why is the earth in such a bad shape.

Here's the deal. Survival through adaptation in a changing environment is what we call survival of the fittest. Those species that adapt, will survive, those that don't, wont. This may involve a random genetic mutation that just happens to work for a species survival .

Survival is the driver that pushes evolution along.

And as humans, we bring a lot of evolutionary baggage to the party. The main one being the survival of our species, same as all other life form on earth.

That we are doing a lousy job of it at the moment just might mean that we are as doomed as almost every other species that has ever lived. In fact, that is probable.

Still, the drive to take care of that which is in our control to take care of may be due to our evolutionary need to pass our genes on to another generation. We can think of that as a purpose, I suppose, but really, it's simply a drive to survive. As humans, we can philosophies and intellectualize and see ourselves as caretakers, if you will. But in the end, survival and passing on genes is what makes evolution happen. And we are one result of evolution.

Survival is the prime directive. But it isn't necessarily
a thought process that we are acting on. It just may feel that way…

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2007 :  10:32:33   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Robb
[It's human emotions. Why would you think that even if God told me to kill my child, I would just do it without feeling sorrow, fear, loss etc. We do have emotions that God gave us. There are many things God wants us to do and we don't out of fear or something else. I would think that if Abraham could kill his son without emotion something would be wrong.



While I would agree that something would be wrong if there were no emotions, the text in Genesis 22 reads that Abraham did it without any emotion, to the point of even lying to his son about what was to happen.

The poing of the story (IMHO) was to show that Abraham passed God's test with flying colors and no doubt.

So, is there something wrong with Abaraham? Was he a pyschopath?

Or is the point of being a believer is to do anything that god commands without dounbt, questions or fear?

Is the true goal of religion is to convert the beleiver into a psychopath?

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
Edited by - pleco on 02/14/2007 10:37:28
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2007 :  11:07:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Robb

quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis

Duh! You asked about my opinion, did you expect something that was not my opinion? You may claim we rock if you want, I have no problem with that. I call actions that can kill me and my family and perhaps everyone else on the planet suck-face actions, but that is just me.
Exactly my point.

quote:
Are you saying that if your god wasn't real you would just go on a killing spree and destroy the Earth?
No, but what would be wrong with it if I chose to?





Technically nothing would be wrong about it. But right and wrong are a matter of perspective and there may be a few billion folks who would do whatever they can to stop you.

Im not sure who is scarier, the one who wants to end the world because they see no reason not to or the one who wants to end the world because some book told them the end of the world was a good thing.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2007 :  11:22:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message
The one who want to because they see no reason not to could possibly be reasoned with.

The other one could not.

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2007 :  11:22:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by GeeMack

quote:
Originally posted by Robb...
quote:
Originally posted by Kil...

Ahhhh, but it could be that we are evolutionarily driven to not destroy the Earth?
This is just a question, do not read anything into it. My understanding is that evolution has no purpose it just happens (I may be wrong). How can you assign a purpose to it now?
Kil didn't "assign a purpose" to evolution, but your misrepresenting his comment isn't surprising. That kind of dishonesty seems common among those who desperately cling to their belief in magic at the expense of understanding science.
How was I dishonest? It was a truthful question. It seemed to me he was assigning a purpose to evolution and wanted clarification.

Some advice: If you want to educate someone as you try to in the rest of your post, then do not insult them when they have honest questions.

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2007 :  11:24:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Kil

Here's the deal. Survival through adaptation in a changing environment is what we call survival of the fittest. Those species that adapt, will survive, those that don't, wont. This may involve a random genetic mutation that just happens to work for a species survival .

Survival is the driver that pushes evolution along.

And as humans, we bring a lot of evolutionary baggage to the party. The main one being the survival of our species, same as all other life form on earth.

That we are doing a lousy job of it at the moment just might mean that we are as doomed as almost every other species that has ever lived. In fact, that is probable.

Still, the drive to take care of that which is in our control to take care of may be due to our evolutionary need to pass our genes on to another generation. We can think of that as a purpose, I suppose, but really, it's simply a drive to survive. As humans, we can philosophies and intellectualize and see ourselves as caretakers, if you will. But in the end, survival and passing on genes is what makes evolution happen. And we are one result of evolution.

Survival is the prime directive. But it isn't necessarily
a thought process that we are acting on. It just may feel that way…


Thanks

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2007 :  11:38:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by pleco

While I would agree that something would be wrong if there were no emotions, the text in Genesis 22 reads that Abraham did it without any emotion, to the point of even lying to his son about what was to happen.
It was recorded in verse 1 that Abraham loved Isaac. I doubt you could kill someone you love without emotion. Where did Abraham lie to his son?

Also, Abraham knew that God promised (Gen 17:15)that Sarah would be the mother of Nations and Kings. If Isaac was dead, then God would be a liar. He must have believed that god would stop him or God would raise Isaac from the dead.

quote:
The poing of the story (IMHO) was to show that Abraham passed God's test with flying colors and no doubt.

So, is there something wrong with Abaraham? Was he a pyschopath?

Or is the point of being a believer is to do anything that god commands without dounbt, questions or fear?

Is the true goal of religion is to convert the beleiver into a psychopath?

It is explained in Hebrews 6:13-20.

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2007 :  11:40:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf

Technically nothing would be wrong about it. But right and wrong are a matter of perspective and there may be a few billion folks who would do whatever they can to stop you.
Are you saying that right and wrong should be decided on a majority vote?


Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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