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Hawks
SFN Regular

Canada
1383 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2007 :  15:24:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Hawks's Homepage Send Hawks a Private Message
quote:
If there is no point to life, what does it matter if we destroy the earth? Why does anything matter?


The reasoning here seems to be that only something "higher" can instill some form of point to our lives. Let's run with that for the sake of argument. Let's say we were in fact created by a "god". Problem is, you don't know what that god is and why it created you (you might believe you do, but that is different). So, in effect, there is A point, but you don't know what the point is. Why is that any better than not having any absolute point in the first place?

METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden!
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2007 :  15:34:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Hawks

quote:
If there is no point to life, what does it matter if we destroy the earth? Why does anything matter?


The reasoning here seems to be that only something "higher" can instill some form of point to our lives.
And actually, as this christian argues, that's only if the creator desires to give our existence meaning. You see, life has no inherent worth:
quote:
If I am correct that my God is the Creator God, that we are all his creations, then killing every child under two on the planet is no more inherently significant than a programmer unilaterally wiping out his AI-bots in a game universe. He alone has the right to define right and wrong, and as the Biblical example of King Saul and the Amalekites demonstrates, He has occasionally deemed it a moral duty to wipe out a people.

So unless christians can tell me with a straight face they'd have absolutely no qualms murdering their children (like "A-I bots") if their god commanded them, then clearly they don't believe that god alone gives meaning to their lives. Hey, what do you know? That's what atheists have been saying all along.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2007 :  15:44:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message
quote:
So unless christians can tell me with a straight face they'd have absolutely no qualms murdering their children (like "A-I bots") if their god commanded them, clearly they don't believe that god alone gives meaning to their lives.


I would bet they would say their faith isn't strong enough. That feller Abraham in bible almost did it...but he had MegaFaith.

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2007 :  17:08:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by pleco
I would bet they would say their faith isn't strong enough. That feller Abraham in bible almost did it...but he had MegaFaith.

Ah, but even Abraham hesitated.

If, as Christians maintain, life only has value so far as god decrees it, then as soon as god ordered Isaac's life be taken, Abraham should have felt no further attachment to him. God effectively ceased assigning meaning to Isaac's life. It should have been no harder than killing an infidel, or slaughtering a lamb, or mowing the lawn. The very fact that is was difficult for Abraham to kill his son indicates that something else is at work than simply what god wills.

Christians have no proper explanation for this "something else."


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 02/13/2007 18:00:12
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13457 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2007 :  17:13:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message
quote:
Robb:
If there is no point to life, what does it matter if we destroy the earth? Why does anything matter?


Ahhhh, but it could be that we are evolutionarily driven to not destroy the Earth? For all species, the prime directive is to survive. And we can't very well do that if we have no planet to survive on, now can we?

Of course, we are still germs on the side of a rock. But in order to survive we must take care of our rock. Not that we are doing all that good of a job of it, but hey, can't blame atheists for that. We are very much in the minority…

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2007 :  17:30:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
The very fact that is was difficult for Abraham to kill his son idicates that something else is at work than simply what god wills.

Christians have no proper explanation for this "something else.



I would say to this that it is the sinful nature which distracts and causes hesitation, for almost all have sinned because of Adam and Eve.

To the gentle reader, I'm not a christian but I sometimes play one on SFN.

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2007 :  17:51:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by pleco
I would say to this that it is the sinful nature which distracts and causes hesitation, for almost all have sinned because of Adam and Eve.
But this is a discussion about the value of life, which christians assert comes directly from god. By saying that sin caused the hesitation, you're arguing that sin gave Isaac's life meaning. (Or are you arguing that valuing life is itself a sin?)

As much as they love to blame sin for everything, either scenario would be absurd to a christian on their face.

quote:
To the gentle reader, I'm not a christian but I sometimes play one on SFN.
And it's appreciated, though real christians are welcome to chime in.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 02/13/2007 17:52:52
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9666 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2007 :  18:04:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Robb
Does this mean that you consider yourself to be no better than an ant?

In certain aspects, an ant is way better than man.
An ant can easily carry a hundred times it's own weight tirelessly 6 hours/day every day practically it's entire life, and will selflessly sacrifice its own life without a blink of its eye in defence of its community.
You couldn't carry even your own weight on your back for 6 hours/day seven days a week without being a wreck in no-time.
Would you selflessly without second thought gladly sacrifice your life in defence of any human being?

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2007 :  18:10:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
But this is a discussion about the value of life, which christians assert comes directly from god. By saying that sin caused the hesitation, you're arguing that sin gave Isaac's life meaning. (Or are you arguing that valuing life is itself a sin?)


According to the wiki article, Abraham obeyed without questioning. Further, I read Genesis 22, which does not say he hesitated, though he lied to his son about what was going to happen.

But, more to the point, I would say that, no, sin didn't give value. God gives value to life, and God can do what he/she wants. In this particular case, the value of his son's life was enable Abaraham to please God, which would be the highest value to a believer, no?

You and I may look at murder as the total disdain for life, but for a believer, Killing in the Name Of means something completely different. The Commandment says "Thou shall not kill.", but this has been "interpreted" to really mean "Thou shall not kill unless God says it is ok."

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular

USA
1191 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2007 :  18:13:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send R.Wreck a Private Message
quote:
Does this mean that you consider yourself to be no better than an ant?


Better than an ant? Certainly. But the oyster, well that's another story:

quote:
Very well. According to Kelvin's figures it took 99,968,000 years to prepare the world for man, impatient as the Creator doubtless was to see him and admire him. But a large enterprise like this has to be conducted warily, painstakingly, logically. It was foreseen that man would have to have the oyster. Therefore the first preparation was made for the oyster. Very well, you cannot make an oyster out of whole cloth, you must make the oyster's ancestor first. This is not done in a day. You must make a vast variety of invertebrates, to start with -- belemnites, trilobites, jebusites, amalekites, and that sort of fry, and put them to soak in a primary sea, and wait and see what will happen. Some will be a disappointments - the belemnites, the ammonites and such; they will be failures, they will die out and become extinct, in the course of the 19,000,000 years covered by the experiment, but all is not lost, for the amalekites will fetch the home-stake; they will develop gradually into encrinites, and stalactites, and blatherskites, and one thing and another as the mighty ages creep on and the Archaean and the Cambrian Periods pile their lofty crags in the primordial seas, and at last the first grand stage in the preparation of the world for man stands completed, the Oyster is done. An oyster has hardly any more reasoning power than a scientist has; and so it is reason ably certain that this one jumped to the conclusion that the nineteen-million years was a preparation for him; but that would be just like an oyster, which is the most conceited animal there is, except man.

The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley

The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2007 :  19:11:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by pleco
According to the wiki article, Abraham obeyed without questioning. Further, I read Genesis 22, which does not say he hesitated, though he lied to his son about what was going to happen.
Bah. I should have looked it up.

quote:
But, more to the point, I would say that, no, sin didn't give value. God gives value to life, and God can do what he/she wants. In this particular case, the value of his son's life was enable Abaraham to please God, which would be the highest value to a believer, no?
Right. So I'm saying that if a christian wants to argue that god alone gives value to human life, they must honestly answer that if put into Abraham's sandals, they wouldn't hesitate to murder their own children either. Maybe some christians can truthfully answer that they would.

quote:
You and I may look at murder as the total disdain for life, but for a believer, Killing in the Name Of means something completely different. The Commandment says "Thou shall not kill.", but this has been "interpreted" to really mean "Thou shall not kill unless God says it is ok."

Yeah, but how many christians are really capable of this? Far less, I would wager, than the number of christians who claim that only god gives value to human life. I think it's a case of most christians saying one thing and believing another in practice.

But of course, I do allow that some portion of christians really are that psychotic.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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Hawks
SFN Regular

Canada
1383 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2007 :  19:47:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Hawks's Homepage Send Hawks a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Robb
What are the top myths that you think Christians believe about the theory of evolution?

I think that the question is a bit misguided. I would substitute Christians for evolution-deniers. The two terms are simply correlated in this instance. Or, maybe that's what you were testing? To see if skeptics would assume that when you say christian. Aha, got you.

To cap that off, i think that evolution-deniers (and by correlation christians) think that natural selection involves the survival of the strongest.
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
In certain aspects, an ant is way better than man.
An ant can easily carry a hundred times it's own weight tirelessly 6 hours/day every day practically it's entire life, and will selflessly sacrifice its own life without a blink of its eye in defence of its community.

Add the fact that they can fall from a great height without a parachute and still get up and walk afterwards.

METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden!
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Neurosis
SFN Regular

USA
675 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2007 :  21:26:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Neurosis an AOL message Send Neurosis a Private Message
quote:
To cap that off, i think that evolution-deniers (and by correlation christians) think that natural selection involves the survival of the strongest.


Another version of this is to assume that evolution requires everyone to kill everyone else so that they can live, instead of the obvious need to coexist in order to reduce fatalities in both species.

Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson

[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink

Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.]
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2007 :  02:46:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf

To assume that we are 'lesser beings if we evolved from common ancestors within the animal kingdom' would you not need the myth that we are greater beings in the first place?



It doesn't matter. Regardless of what you consider your level of importance to be, what I said was the myth is believing that if you evolved you are lesser than if some god created you. The myth is that it's somehow demeaning to have evolved. That's just stupid. I am who I am regardless of how the human race came to be.


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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2007 :  02:48:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Hawks


The reasoning here seems to be that only something "higher" can instill some form of point to our lives. Let's run with that for the sake of argument. Let's say we were in fact created by a "god". Problem is, you don't know what that god is and why it created you (you might believe you do, but that is different). So, in effect, there is A point, but you don't know what the point is. Why is that any better than not having any absolute point in the first place?

Exactly. Same point I was making but with a different example.


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