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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2007 :  05:59:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by GeeMack

Asking Kil how he could assign a purpose to evolution, when in fact he hadn't, indicated you don't actually understand the process.
That is why I asked the question. I even said when I asked the question that I did not know if he had in fact assigned a purpose, only that it seemed to me he had.

quote:
And you've always been willing to admit that you believe in magic.
Actually the Bible frowns on magic.

quote:
It may not have been your intent to do so, but misrepresenting evolution, or statements made about it, is a dishonest tactic often used by the superstitious when they want to avoid understanding the science of evolution. It seemed that's what you were doing.
So misrepresenting evolution even though I did not mean to is dishonest. You would call a child a liar if they put on a math test that 10/3=5.

quote:
And some advice for you: If you actually are making an effort to educate yourself about evolution, you might do well to try a bit harder to understand what is actually being said.
I am sorry that I am not as smart as you.

quote:
Unfortunately for you, Robb, there are many who have come ahead of you and made your job more difficult by feigning a desire to learn more about the science. All too often they weren't interested in learning about evolution at all. All too often they were simply trying their damnedest to discredit it, or to find a loophole in it, in order to support their superstitious beliefs. If that isn't your game, you might consider investing a little extra effort to make sure you don't appear to be playing it.
That is unfortunate. I just want to correct myths about evolution by Christians so if the subject comes up they (I) at least have an understanding of what it is. Like I said before, as Christians we should be representing evolution as scientists that are working in the field do and not what Christian authors say about it.

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2007 :  06:03:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by filthy

I'm not sure I understand this. Do you think it was good that Hitler exterminated 6,000,000 jews? Does anyone aside from our modern-day, wannabe-nazis, think that?
Of course not. But if people make up what is right and wrong how can you say that it was wrong?

quote:
A basic code of behavior is hard-wired into all social species, be they ape, equine, or ourselves (another ape, when you come right down to it). In our case, we've added to those codes in various ways, for good or ill. And while we change them around almost daily, we never change those few, basic rules. Could anyone imagine a society where homocide was not only legal but encouraged? Or larceny? Or... treason?





If this is true then why is there murder? It seems to me if a basic code of behavior is hard wired into social species then murder would be non-existant.

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2007 :  06:13:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Hawks

quote:
Originally posted by Robb
quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis
Are you saying that if your god wasn't real you would just go on a killing spree and destroy the Earth?
No, but what would be wrong with it if I chose to?


Why would it be any more wrong if there is a god? Are you suggesting that murder is wrong just because god claims so? What if god claimed that murder was OK (or even encouraged it)? Would you accept that or would you still think that is was wrong? If you would still think that it was wrong, then surely what god says about it doesn't really matter.

Certainly murder is wrong because God claims so. But I agree that most people would think murder to be wrong without Gods input. I did before I became a Christian. If God said "you shall kill whenever you see fit" then it would be right but I admit I do not think I could do it. However, He did not say this and maybe He put things in our concience that are in line with His laws.

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25973 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2007 :  06:51:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Robb

...maybe He put things in our concience that are in line with His laws.
If that were the case, then "free will" wouldn't be so free.

Seriously, you need to think about what empathy is and how it works. Or doesn't, since sociopaths are incredibly valuable and interesting examples of what a person would be like if their "morals" truly came from within. (Not precisely, but the end result is comparable.)

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2007 :  07:31:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Of course not. But if people make up what is right and wrong how can you say that it was wrong?
Easily. Any act that is detremental to the species' benefit is wrong. Murder, especally in such staggering numbers, is certainly not to the species' benefit.
quote:

If this is true then why is there murder? It seems to me if a basic code of behavior is hard wired into social species then murder would be non-existant.
Not at all. Murder, in our species, is an abberation; one that we are quicker to punish than any other. Our species is unique in that we can, and too often do, over ride our, for lack of a better word; conditioning. It's a part of the curse of sapience.

However, murder is not unknown in species other than ours. Lions, for example. When a male takes over leadership of the pride, he kills all of the cubs that are not his own. Isn't this detremental to the species, to have an entire generation killed off in one, fell swoop? No. Lions live in closely related prides. If this did not occure, the prides would be hoplessly inbred. This is not to be confused with territoral or breeding conflicts, which sometimes end in fatalities. This last can not be considered murder.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Edited by - filthy on 02/15/2007 07:34:26
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furshur
SFN Regular

USA
1536 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2007 :  08:04:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send furshur a Private Message
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Technically nothing would be wrong about it. But right and wrong are a matter of perspective and there may be a few billion folks who would do whatever they can to stop you.

Rob's reply
Are you saying that right and wrong should be decided on a majority vote?

This is exactly what occurs relative to laws, morals and religion. It always ticks me off when I here a religious person say "my laws are from the bible (for instance) and do not change with popular morals".
Bullshit!
The bible says slavery is fine. Christians now beleive that it is immoral.
The bible says that if your son back talks you, then the neihborhood should stone him to death. I think christians would call this immoral.
Geeze Abraham was worried he wouldn't have any kids so he knocked up one of his servents.
Come on.


If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know.
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GeeMack
SFN Regular

USA
1093 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2007 :  08:50:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send GeeMack a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Robb...
quote:
Originally posted by me...

And you've always been willing to admit that you believe in magic.
Actually the Bible frowns on magic.
Actually the Bible is filled with tales of magical occurrences. It describes the magical existence of a nearly omnipotent invisible being with magic powers. It explains how that being magically made plants and animals and people. It tells of that invisible being magically flooding the Earth to kill almost all the people. It proposes that a virgin became pregnant by magic. It contains stories about a man magically coming back to life after dying, as well as his performing several other acts of magic. Of course there are dozens, maybe hundreds more examples of magic happening in the Bible.

The Bible may appear to frown on magic in some passages, Robb, but the entire Christian religion is based on its adherents believing in magic. So unless you've changed your belief system since your last posting where you claimed to be a Christian, you've admitted to believing in magic.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13457 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2007 :  09:06:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message
quote:
Robb:
I just want to correct myths about evolution by Christians so if the subject comes up they (I) at least have an understanding of what it is. Like I said before, as Christians we should be representing evolution as scientists that are working in the field do and not what Christian authors say about it.

Regardless of whether I agree with Robb on certain views he may have, I, for one, have always appreciated his honesty on these boards. I just needed to say thatů

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9666 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2007 :  09:12:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Robb
quote:
It may not have been your intent to do so, but misrepresenting evolution, or statements made about it, is a dishonest tactic often used by the superstitious when they want to avoid understanding the science of evolution. It seemed that's what you were doing.
So misrepresenting evolution even though I did not mean to is dishonest. You would call a child a liar if they put on a math test that 10/3=5.
That's not what he wrote.
Perhaps you should freshen up your English skills, becuase even to me who has English as a second language, the meaning was perfectly clear:
Superstitious people who want to avoid understanding are using dishonest tactics, and you may unintentionally have written things making you look like one.

Your math-test analogy is also flawed. A better one would be calling a school-boy a liar for answering "no" when asked is if he smoke, when he holds a pencil the same way that a smoker would hold his cigarette.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2007 :  09:21:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Kil
Regardless of whether I agree with Robb on certain views he may have, I, for one, have always appreciated his honesty on these boards. I just needed to say thatů



I agree; it is quite refreshing and unfortunately not very common from the religious folk.

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9666 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2007 :  09:23:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Robb
I just want to correct myths about evolution by Christians so if the subject comes up they (I) at least have an understanding of what it is. Like I said before, as Christians we should be representing evolution as scientists that are working in the field do and not what Christian authors say about it.


The first step is to make people realize that Christian authors' foremost concern is usually to promote faith in God and promote Christianity. Scientific truths or facts come a very far distant second place if they are even in the race, especially if they seem to contradict Christian dogma.

It's easier to believe a comforting and emotionally satisfying lie, than accept a truth that is discomforting. It is my experience from 10 years in the Pentecostal church that emotions are very important to churchgoers, hence the natural bias for a comforting lie.
(edited to add: it's not merely an observation, it is first hand experience.)

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 02/15/2007 11:00:53
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2007 :  14:04:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by GeeMack

Actually the Bible is filled with tales of magical occurrences. It describes the magical existence of a nearly omnipotent invisible being with magic powers. It explains how that being magically made plants and animals and people. It tells of that invisible being magically flooding the Earth to kill almost all the people. It proposes that a virgin became pregnant by magic. It contains stories about a man magically coming back to life after dying, as well as his performing several other acts of magic. Of course there are dozens, maybe hundreds more examples of magic happening in the Bible.

The Bible may appear to frown on magic in some passages, Robb, but the entire Christian religion is based on its adherents believing in magic. So unless you've changed your belief system since your last posting where you claimed to be a Christian, you've admitted to believing in magic.


Magic assumes human control of supernatural events. This is forbidden by God. The miracles you describe are all performed by God. It is not magic.

From dictionary.com http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/magic

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2007 :  14:07:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

That's not what he wrote.
Perhaps you should freshen up your English skills, becuase even to me who has English as a second language, the meaning was perfectly clear:
Superstitious people who want to avoid understanding are using dishonest tactics, and you may unintentionally have written things making you look like one.
I did take it wrong. thanks for the clarification. I may have seemed to do be doing this.


Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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Hawks
SFN Regular

Canada
1383 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2007 :  14:26:29   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Hawks's Homepage Send Hawks a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Robb
Certainly murder is wrong because God claims so. But I agree that most people would think murder to be wrong without Gods input. I did before I became a Christian. If God said "you shall kill whenever you see fit" then it would be right but I admit I do not think I could do it.

Maybe god claims that murder is wrong for the simple reason that murder is wrong. In which case, it again doesn't matter what god has to say about the matter. What if god not only encouraged murder but actually said that it was wrong NOT to murder? Would you still think that it is wrong?
quote:
However, He did not say this and maybe ...

The purpose of invoking god into this discussion is obviously to claim that one is necessary to say that there is an absolute right and wrong. Problem is, of course, that given that it is possible to postulate any god who can dictate anything, that you are going to have to choose an arbitrary god on which to base your morals. And which one is one to choose? Well, the answer would seem to be the one that already suits your morals. So, in effect, adding a god to the equation adds nothing.

quote:
Originally posted bu Dave W.
Seriously, you need to think about what empathy is and how it works. Or doesn't, since sociopaths are incredibly valuable and interesting examples of what a person would be like if their "morals" truly came from within. (Not precisely, but the end result is comparable.)

And the only reason that sociopaths sometimes "do the right thing" is because of the threat of punishment (whereever that may come from). So, since some religious folk like to claim that the only reason that we don't go on murderous rampages is because of the threat of (eternal) punishment, it would follow that they think that people are inherently sociopathic. What a grim view of humanity. And given that the vast majority of people are not inherently sociopathic, it is also wrong.

METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden!
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2007 :  14:38:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Hawks

So, since some religious folk like to claim that the only reason that we don't go on murderous rampages is because of the threat of (eternal) punishment, it would follow that they think that people are inherently sociopathic. What a grim view of humanity. And given that the vast majority of people are not inherently sociopathic, it is also wrong.

Few Christians have this view.

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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