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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9666 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2007 :  15:40:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Robb

quote:
Originally posted by Hawks

So, since some religious folk like to claim that the only reason that we don't go on murderous rampages is because of the threat of (eternal) punishment, it would follow that they think that people are inherently sociopathic. What a grim view of humanity. And given that the vast majority of people are not inherently sociopathic, it is also wrong.

Few Christians have this view.

And yet we encounter many who express this view. It is a logical conclusion derived from one of the Evolution-Myths you were looking to get explained.

Earlier in the thread:
quote:
Originally posted by Robb
quote:
quote:
Are you saying that if your god wasn't real you would just go on a killing spree and destroy the Earth?

No, but what would be wrong with it if I chose to?
You answered "no", yet you had to ask...

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25976 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2007 :  15:43:04   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Robb

Few Christians have this view.
It is, instead, one of the "myths of evolution" that lots of Christians have bought into: that evolutionary theory suggests that we all should be sociopaths, acting only in our own self-interest to procreate. In such a world, murder and rape and a whole host of other repugnant acts would not only be moral but necessary.

Damn good thing that evolutionary theory doesn't actually suggest any such thing.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2007 :  17:27:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

quote:
Originally posted by Robb

Few Christians have this view.
It is, instead, one of the "myths of evolution" that lots of Christians have bought into: that evolutionary theory suggests that we all should be sociopaths, acting only in our own self-interest to procreate. In such a world, murder and rape and a whole host of other repugnant acts would not only be moral but necessary.

Damn good thing that evolutionary theory doesn't actually suggest any such thing.

Thanks, this is a new myth that I have not heard of. I will write it down. I have never thought such a thing.

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2007 :  17:34:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

And yet we encounter many who express this view. It is a logical conclusion derived from one of the Evolution-Myths you were looking to get explained.
I will take you at your word that you have run into many Christians with this view.

quote:
Earlier in the thread:
quote:
Originally posted by Robb
quote:
quote:
Are you saying that if your god wasn't real you would just go on a killing spree and destroy the Earth?

No, but what would be wrong with it if I chose to?
You answered "no", yet you had to ask...


I was only asking to make a point that his point of view was that all morals come from each individual. And if that is so, how can he say anything is wrong or right. I did not mean to imply that it is a logical conclusion or that it would happen if there was no God. As I said before, I thought I had good morals before I was a Christian.

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9666 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2007 :  18:01:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Robb
quote:
A basic code of behavior is hard-wired into all social species, be they ape, equine, or ourselves (another ape, when you come right down to it). In our case, we've added to those codes in various ways, for good or ill. And while we change them around almost daily, we never change those few, basic rules. Could anyone imagine a society where homocide was not only legal but encouraged? Or larceny? Or... treason?

If this is true then why is there murder? It seems to me if a basic code of behavior is hard wired into social species then murder would be non-existant.

That is because we are living things, not robots that comes pre-programmed with absolute laws of behaviour. This is also another thing that I have observed in many non-skeptics: the need for things and questions to have absolute answers that may not be open for interpretation or change over time.

The thing is, biological "programmes" get corrupted, and the "hard wire" isn't written in stone but soft tissue.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2007 :  18:51:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Robb
I was only asking to make a point that his point of view was that all morals come from each individual.
I think you're missing BigPapaSmurf's point. He never said morals come from individuals. He said morals stem from people, i.e. collectively.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 02/15/2007 19:51:27
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moakley
SFN Regular

USA
1882 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2007 :  19:42:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send moakley a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Robb

I was only asking to make a point that his point of view was that all morals come from each individual. And if that is so, how can he say anything is wrong or right. I did not mean to imply that it is a logical conclusion or that it would happen if there was no God. As I said before, I thought I had good morals before I was a Christian.

emphasis added
What a refreshing thing to hear a Christian say. That even without a belief in the Christian God it is still possible to be ethical.

Life is good

Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous
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GeeMack
SFN Regular

USA
1093 Posts

Posted - 02/16/2007 :  06:38:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send GeeMack a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Robb...

Magic assumes human control of supernatural events. This is forbidden by God. The miracles you describe are all performed by God. It is not magic.
Feeble apologetics; a rose by any other name and all that. Belief in magic is the foundation of the Christian cult. You know, reciting incantations, participating in occult activities, it's all part of the package. Nobody forces you to idolize that bogeyman, Robb. You do it by your own choice. You may prefer to use certain words to reduce your discomfort, but that won't change the concepts. If you have a problem with the things that go along with being a Christian, stop.
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 02/16/2007 :  11:10:33   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message
Gee Mack, good to see you still have your subtlety.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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Neurosis
SFN Regular

USA
675 Posts

Posted - 02/18/2007 :  20:14:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Neurosis an AOL message Send Neurosis a Private Message
quote:

Certainly murder is wrong because God claims so. But I agree that most people would think murder to be wrong without Gods input. I did before I became a Christian. If God said "you shall kill whenever you see fit" then it would be right but I admit I do not think I could do it. However, He did not say this and maybe He put things in our concience that are in line with His laws.


This is the biggest problem I have with Christians and all other religious people. If god said something is good that DOES NOT make it good. Things are good by their own merit. People who think that acts are justified by god's wishes are the people that think suicide bombing is ok if infidels are killed or that bombing abortion clinics is good if it saves people from sin.

The reason that we put murderers in jail is because we do not want them to kill us, that is the only reason. Any others are just justifying the act and special pleading. The reason we are 'good' people is because being good benefits us the most. We do not punch people, because they then will not punch us back and so that others don't shun us as a guy that randomly punches people. In the same way that we are nice and sociable in order to make people like us and hang out with us not because it is polite.

You said that fear of god is not the reason that one is moral, but if god makes up what is moral then that is exactly what you are doing. Of course, you do not check with god about what is moral, elsewise you would find picking up sticks on saturday a crime that deserves capital punishment.

Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson

[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink

Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.]
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