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Coat Of Arms
Skeptic Friend
USA
58 Posts |
 Posted - 06/05/2008 : 14:58:58
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I was attending a mandated class on criminal law up dates. The class is taught by a Harvard Law Professor. The professor to say the least is brilliant. He also teaches Philosophy of Law. He pointed to someone in the front row and asked what their date of birth was. He then asked on what date they will attain their next birthday. He then corrected him and said they would be a year older the day before their original birth date. He then quoted a new law.
Under the common law and the law of the commonwealth Of Massachusetts each year a person attains his or her age should be celebrated on the day before the anniversary of the original birth date.
He gave this example:
A normal year starts on a Monday, then the following year has
to start on a Tuesday.
If you were born July 18, 1958 you will be one year older on July 17th 1959 there are 365 days in a year, you can not count July 18th twice.
No one in the class ever questions him on anything he says. He uses words with power, persuasion, and impact, a million dollar vocabulary, and I would have no doubt he can debate with the best. With hesitation I raised my hand. He pointed and said you have a question.
I told him the legislature has just committed what mathematicians call a "fencepost error".
He says I interpret it to be an axiom or postulate that is self evident until a judge or a jury determines otherwise. In common law it's considered a precedent or authority.
I fired back and said, that's an analogy of law, and it's used to resolve issues on which there is no previous authority. A distinction has to be made between analogous reasoning from written law and analogy to precedent case law.
He fires back and says it's a Legal Positivism.
Legal Positivism legal positivism, which is roughly constituted by three theoretical commitments: the Social Fact Thesis, the Conventionality Thesis, and the Separability Thesis. The Social Fact Thesis (which is also known as the Pedigree Thesis) asserts that it is a necessary truth that legal validity is ultimately a function of certain kinds of social facts. The Conventionality Thesis emphasizes law's conventional nature, claiming that the social facts giving rise to legal validity are authoritative in virtue of some kind of social convention.
The conversation ended with me saying the next time the legislature considers making a new law which is confusing and has little or no real meaning that will more then likely never be enforced. I would make a polite suggestion to the legislature, I think they really need to think about whether they are thinking critically when their thinking using critical thinking.
I should have asked, what happens in a leap year. What do you think about the law?
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Paul C. |
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Vegeta
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
238 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2008 : 15:48:09 [Permalink]
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call me stupid but I count forward 365 days I wind up on the same date. I don't see how the day of the week is relevent.
With regards to the law, there are many silly laws practiced and enforced by no one.
But if people were to start abiding by this one it would seem like your age would be wrong for a longer time every year, and surely could open up a can of worms. |
What are you looking at? Haven't you ever seen a pink shirt before?
"I was asked if I would do a similar sketch but focusing on the shortcomings of Islam rather than Christianity. I said, 'No, no I wouldn't. I may be an atheist but I'm not stupid.'" - Steward Lee |
| Edited by - Vegeta on 06/05/2008 15:53:56 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2008 : 18:11:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Vegeta
I don't see how the day of the week is relevent. |
The legislature (and the lecturer) seem to be of the opinion that 365 is evenly divisible by 7. But a year is 52 weeks and one day, not 52 weeks even.
If one was born on June 5th, 2008, at 9:08 PM, then 364 days, 23 hours and 59 minutes later it will be June 5th, 2009, at 9:07 PM. One's birth minute will be one minute later, exactly a year afterwards. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2008 : 18:37:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Vegeta
I don't see how the day of the week is relevent. |
The legislature (and the lecturer) seem to be of the opinion that 365 is evenly divisible by 7. But a year is 52 weeks and one day, not 52 weeks even.
If one was born on June 5th, 2008, at 9:08 PM, then 364 days, 23 hours and 59 minutes later it will be June 5th, 2009, at 9:07 PM. One's birth minute will be one minute later, exactly a year afterwards.
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So the big-shot Harvard lawyer is wrong? At least the precedent of interpreting the MA law is? |
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Vegeta
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
238 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2008 : 19:54:30 [Permalink]
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| a year is 52 weeks and one day, not 52 weeks even. |
I realised this but felt it too obvious to mention. I thought I was missing something. |
What are you looking at? Haven't you ever seen a pink shirt before?
"I was asked if I would do a similar sketch but focusing on the shortcomings of Islam rather than Christianity. I said, 'No, no I wouldn't. I may be an atheist but I'm not stupid.'" - Steward Lee |
| Edited by - Vegeta on 06/05/2008 19:55:22 |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2008 : 20:25:58 [Permalink]
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Dave.....
| If one was born on June 5th, 2008, at 9:08 PM, then 364 days, 23 hours and 59 minutes later it will be June 5th, 2009, at 9:07 PM. One's birth minute will be one minute later, exactly a year afterwards. |
Except for leap years.
Actually, a person's birthday is the same day of the same month that they were born each year, irrespective of whether the year has 365 or 366 days. This is law in every state I have ever lived in or checked, but maybe Massachusetts has other ideas. Where could one look this up, Dave? |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2008 : 20:25:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Cuneiformist
So the big-shot Harvard lawyer is wrong? |
If he's repeating the bit about "you can't count the same day twice" then yes, he's wrong. One's birthDAY is a whole day long. If one was born at 1:32 PM, then one is technically less than one year older for the first 13.5someting hours of the anniversary date of their birth, exactly one year older only at the split-second at which one was born, and more than a year older for the remaining 10.4something hours of that calendar date. But it's all one birthDAY.
And I really don't think you're missing anything more than that, Vegeta. At least, I can't come up with a plausible rationale for that law, other than that legislators are typically lawyers and not mathematicians. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2008 : 20:41:01 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Except for leap years. |
Indeed. But if we get into leap years, then technically if one were born at 1:32 PM on June 5th, 2008, then one wouldn't become exactly one year older until 7:18 PM on June 5th, 2009; one wouldn't turn two until 1:03 AM on June 6th, 2010; one wouldn't turn three until 6:49 AM on June 6th, 2011; one wouldn't turn four until 12:34 PM on June 5th, 2012; etc.. A year, after all, is 365.24 days long. Of course, this example doesn't count the leap seconds that might get inserted as the Earth slows.| Actually, a person's birthday is the same day of the same month that they were born each year, irrespective of whether the year has 365 or 366 days. This is law in every state I have ever lived in or checked, but maybe Massachusetts has other ideas. Where could one look this up, Dave? |
I've never looked. So far as I know, every state has its code online and searchable. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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leoofno
Skeptic Friend
USA
346 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2008 : 04:50:39 [Permalink]
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How about this:
A solar year is about 365.25 days, right? So if you were born at 9:00 AM on June 15, you would be a solar year older at 3:00 PM on June 15 of the next year. It would continue to progress, and depending on how late in the day you were born, you would progress right into June 16. At least until leap year brings you back to 9:00 AM on June 15. But that takes us the wrong way, with your birthday celebration moving forward.
How about you are born 9:00 AM on February 28 on a leap year. Therefore, you are a solar year older at 3:00 PM, Frbruary 27 of the next year, because of the added day. The law would make sense.
The closer your birthday is to leap day, without going over, the more of an impact it has on pushing your solar birthday to an earlier date. At least it seems that way to me., but I haven't had my morning cup of coffee yet.
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"If you're not terrified, you're not paying attention." Eric Alterman
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Coat Of Arms
Skeptic Friend
USA
58 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2008 : 05:32:43 [Permalink]
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I can think of one reason why the legislature would pass or ponder making a confusing law. A legislatures child or relative was celebrating their 21st Birthday the night before they turned 21, they were either arrested or some form of court action resulted.
It seems the law only makes sense to the legislature. |
Paul C. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2008 : 06:00:32 [Permalink]
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I think Leo got it right, sort of. This should be way more confusing.
If Im born at 3AM on May 1, the first year after a leap year, my next birthday should not start until 9Am on May1, the next year at 3pm the next year at 9pm, then leap year goes back to 3am due to the addition of a day before May1. Now if Im born the year before leap year at 3am, My first birthday should be celebrated at 9am April 30...I think. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2008 : 06:49:48 [Permalink]
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A calendar year is 365.2425 days long. Here is a May 1, 2001 at 3 AM birth, followed by the next 149 birth anniversary seconds:
05/01/2001 03:00:00 05/01/2051 06:00:00 05/01/2101 09:00:00
05/01/2002 08:49:12 04/30/2052 11:49:12 05/01/2102 14:49:12
05/01/2003 14:38:24 04/30/2053 17:38:24 05/01/2103 20:38:24
04/30/2004 20:27:36 04/30/2054 23:27:36 05/01/2104 02:27:36
05/01/2005 02:16:48 05/01/2055 05:16:48 05/01/2105 08:16:48
05/01/2006 08:06:00 04/30/2056 11:06:00 05/01/2106 14:06:00
05/01/2007 13:55:12 04/30/2057 16:55:12 05/01/2107 19:55:12
04/30/2008 19:44:24 04/30/2058 22:44:24 05/01/2108 01:44:24
05/01/2009 01:33:36 05/01/2059 04:33:36 05/01/2109 07:33:36
05/01/2010 07:22:48 04/30/2060 10:22:48 05/01/2110 13:22:48
05/01/2011 13:12:00 04/30/2061 16:12:00 05/01/2111 19:12:00
04/30/2012 19:01:12 04/30/2062 22:01:12 05/01/2112 01:01:12
05/01/2013 00:50:24 05/01/2063 03:50:24 05/01/2113 06:50:24
05/01/2014 06:39:36 04/30/2064 09:39:36 05/01/2114 12:39:36
05/01/2015 12:28:48 04/30/2065 15:28:48 05/01/2115 18:28:48
04/30/2016 18:18:00 04/30/2066 21:18:00 05/01/2116 00:18:00
05/01/2017 00:07:12 05/01/2067 03:07:12 05/01/2117 06:07:12
05/01/2018 05:56:24 04/30/2068 08:56:24 05/01/2118 11:56:24
05/01/2019 11:45:36 04/30/2069 14:45:36 05/01/2119 17:45:36
04/30/2020 17:34:48 04/30/2070 20:34:48 04/30/2120 23:34:48
04/30/2021 23:24:00 05/01/2071 02:24:00 05/01/2121 05:24:00
05/01/2022 05:13:12 04/30/2072 08:13:12 05/01/2122 11:13:12
05/01/2023 11:02:24 04/30/2073 14:02:24 05/01/2123 17:02:24
04/30/2024 16:51:36 04/30/2074 19:51:36 04/30/2124 22:51:36
04/30/2025 22:40:48 05/01/2075 01:40:48 05/01/2125 04:40:48
05/01/2026 04:30:00 04/30/2076 07:30:00 05/01/2126 10:30:00
05/01/2027 10:19:12 04/30/2077 13:19:12 05/01/2127 16:19:12
04/30/2028 16:08:24 04/30/2078 19:08:24 04/30/2128 22:08:24
04/30/2029 21:57:36 05/01/2079 00:57:36 05/01/2129 03:57:36
05/01/2030 03:46:48 04/30/2080 06:46:48 05/01/2130 09:46:48
05/01/2031 09:36:00 04/30/2081 12:36:00 05/01/2131 15:36:00
04/30/2032 15:25:12 04/30/2082 18:25:12 04/30/2132 21:25:12
04/30/2033 21:14:24 05/01/2083 00:14:24 05/01/2133 03:14:24
05/01/2034 03:03:36 04/30/2084 06:03:36 05/01/2134 09:03:36
05/01/2035 08:52:48 04/30/2085 11:52:48 05/01/2135 14:52:48
04/30/2036 14:42:00 04/30/2086 17:42:00 04/30/2136 20:42:00
04/30/2037 20:31:12 04/30/2087 23:31:12 05/01/2137 02:31:12
05/01/2038 02:20:24 04/30/2088 05:20:24 05/01/2138 08:20:24
05/01/2039 08:09:36 04/30/2089 11:09:36 05/01/2139 14:09:36
04/30/2040 13:58:48 04/30/2090 16:58:48 04/30/2140 19:58:48
04/30/2041 19:48:00 04/30/2091 22:48:00 05/01/2141 01:48:00
05/01/2042 01:37:12 04/30/2092 04:37:12 05/01/2142 07:37:12
05/01/2043 07:26:24 04/30/2093 10:26:24 05/01/2143 13:26:24
04/30/2044 13:15:36 04/30/2094 16:15:36 04/30/2144 19:15:36
04/30/2045 19:04:48 04/30/2095 22:04:48 05/01/2145 01:04:48
05/01/2046 00:54:00 04/30/2096 03:54:00 05/01/2146 06:54:00
05/01/2047 06:43:12 04/30/2097 09:43:12 05/01/2147 12:43:12
04/30/2048 12:32:24 04/30/2098 15:32:24 04/30/2148 18:32:24
04/30/2049 18:21:36 04/30/2099 21:21:36 05/01/2149 00:21:36
05/01/2050 00:10:48 05/01/2100 03:10:48 05/01/2150 06:10:48 |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2008 : 07:26:44 [Permalink]
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| Kafka would be proud Dave. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2008 : 09:49:41 [Permalink]
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Dave.....
I'm worried about you. You really have to find a productive line of work, somehow! |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2008 : 15:16:50 [Permalink]
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Down, now, down boy....down....that's gooood!
Uh,...it's not exactly the method of the, uh, project, uh... it's about the, uh.....nature of the project! Now, Dave, take your methaqualone.....thaat's my boy! |
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Birth Date Confusion
