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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 06/13/2008 : 19:30:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by no1nose
[quote]Duh . . .[/quote
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And what exactly is that in aid of? Have you so little of substance to argue that you must resort to silly one-word one-liners. I might expect that in a schoolyard, but not in a serious, adult discussion.
Please explain yourself.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2008 : 19:44:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by no1nose
Your conter arguements lack any real substance. This what is left when you cut out the personal attack and straw man arguements:
Come up with something boys or I'm gone.
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Oh, don't be gone. Stick around; we'll have some fun.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2008 : 19:47:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by no1nose
Your conter arguements lack any real substance. |
So you say, but you haven't actually demonstrated it. You've simply repeated yourself, ignoring the fact that not a few of your arguments are self-defeating.| This what is left when you cut out the personal attack and straw man arguements: |
Your rhetorical genius knows no bounds.| Come up with something boys or I'm gone. |
We're not here for your entertainment, so don't let the door hit you on the way out. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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thequestionist
New Member
6 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2008 : 20:06:54 [Permalink]
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Hi all,
Just thought I'd let you know that no1nose is basically a forum troll. He started a word-for-word duplicate of this thread over at christianforums.com and has been just as intellectually dishonest in his responses (apparently repeating a point and asserting that it's valid over and over again is proper argumentative form in no1nose's mind). In fact, one of his "responses" over here is a near word-for-word copy of one of the ones in the christianforums.com thread.
Seeing as how he also posted on the same thread on physforum, I can only assume his plan of action is something along these lines:
-develop genius thesis to show how evolutionary theory is actually christianity in disguise
-when entirely refuted across multiple forums, type up canned response and post across all boards
-continue to be refuted
-???
-profit
Anyways, have fun with this clown :) ...and stay skeptical! I first came to this forum many years ago as a YEC Christian, and can safely say that the discussions I provoked and engaged in here were a key factor in my eventual deconversion from Christianity, and my embrace of skepticism.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2008 : 20:27:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by thequestionist
I first came to this forum many years ago as a YEC Christian, and can safely say that the discussions I provoked and engaged in here were a key factor in my eventual deconversion from Christianity, and my embrace of skepticism. |
Well, welcome back!
Would it be pushy of me to ask what your member name was back then? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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thequestionist
New Member
6 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2008 : 20:33:36 [Permalink]
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"Ivanisavich" :)
I actually tried to do a search for my old threads to bring back the memories, but was only able to find 2 of them because they were archived. Funny stuff nonetheless! |
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no1nose
BANNED
50 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2008 : 20:58:45 [Permalink]
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| Oh, don't be gone. Stick around; we'll have some fun. |
. . . oh OK. I was starting to think that you guys were no fun.
| Just thought I'd let you know that no1nose is basically a forum troll. |
It takes one to know one. Say something interesting and you will get my personal attention. |
| Edited by - no1nose on 06/13/2008 20:59:56 |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2008 : 21:48:49 [Permalink]
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| Evolution and Christianity follow a "redeemer" scenario. In Christianity Jesus is the redeemer and those who follow him are "saved". In Evolution the redeemer is the one member of a species that has a mutation that is advantageous and leads the way to survival. |
Not really.
The mutation change a phenotype and help making it better adapted to a particular environment.
But this new phenotype might not replace the previous one; it is totally possible for it to lead to the apparition of another specie that live alongside the first one. Or that colonize a new environmental niche.
Also, it is possible for the new phenotype to be more specialized to an environment (a diet for example) which, indeed, allows it to replace the older phenotype, but is, in the long run, too specialized and less able to adapt to drastic changes in the environment.
To use a buzzword, it is the proverbial 'evolutionary dead end'. In this case, the individual would be the doom rather than the saviour of a specie.
And Evolution and Christianity have many differences.
To begin with, Christianity is moralistic and it has an overall goal.
Evolution is not.
In Christianity, there is only one path to salvation.
In the ToE; there is many way for a specie to adapt and survive.
Christianity is conscient: Jesus know what he was doing and the saved person must conscientiously accept him.
Mutations are accidental and natural selection occurs even if the individual selected do not realize it.
In Christianity, salvation is personal.The state of your parent's soul have no impact on your salvation.
In the ToE; you can inherit the positive mutations from one of your parents.
Christianity is based on the personal opinions and philosophy of people.
The ToE is based on the description of objective events and testable hypothesis.
[Edited to fix quoting - Dave W.] |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2008 : 21:55:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by thequestionist
"Ivanisavich" :)
I actually tried to do a search for my old threads to bring back the memories, but was only able to find 2 of them because they were archived. Funny stuff nonetheless! |
Oh, Google is your friend. Awesome stuff back then, brings back memories. Especially "Old earth: Where is everybody?" Good times, man. Goooood times.
Hmmm... I'd bet you don't want your Ivanisavich account password reset, right?  |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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no1nose
BANNED
50 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2008 : 21:59:58 [Permalink]
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Thanks for your post Simon
| And Evolution and Christianity have many differences |
Evolution, whether you like it or not, is about the survival of the fittest. You can deny this but still it is true and more importantly it is what the vast majority of people believe. Christianity is about the redemption of the unfit, even if many Christians have not lived up to this ideal. From these two starting blocks there will be different outcomes and Evolutionist are responsible for the outcomes of their core ideals. Many social evils follow naturally from the theory of evolution core ideas. This is not the case with Christianity whose core ideals are against social evil.
You have pointed out some differences but what is the problem with recognizing the parallels between Christianity and Evolution?
In the most general sense they both follow the “Redeemer Scenario” which is the most prevalent myth in the world. The idea of a redeemer is as old as mankind. And it can be found in many cultures. There were many people before Jesus who claimed to be the Messiah and there have been many since. Entertainment in our society is so saturated with this idea of a saviour that we take the whole thing for granted. The Western movie is famous for the lone hero who rides into town to save people from a gang of villains. But there are also many adventure, war, action or drama movies feature a hero who suffers and then rescues the innocent. Often in movies a hero appears to die only to have to somehow have escaped death and reappears to everyone's joy. The fact saviour myths existed before the time of Christ doesn't disprove the validity of Christianity. Far from it, if anything they show that in the heart of mankind there has always been the need for a saviour. All Darwin did was adapt this to the natural world.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2008 : 22:33:32 [Permalink]
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thequestionist:
I first came to this forum many years ago as a YEC Christian, and can safely say that the discussions I provoked and engaged in here were a key factor in my eventual deconversion from Christianity, and my embrace of skepticism. |
Way cool! Nice to hear back from old members who remind us that we aren't just spinning our wheels over here.
Thanks! |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2008 : 23:16:13 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by no1nose
Evolution, whether you like it or not, is about the survival of the fittest. You can deny this but still it is true... |
Even Darwin disavowed that concept, and the modern theories show that while the fittest survive, so do many of the less-fit. And most human societies have chosen to accomodate even the least-fit so long as they're not in agony.| ...and more importantly it is what the vast majority of people believe. |
"If a million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing." - Anatole France.| Christianity is about the redemption of the unfit, even if many Christians have not lived up to this ideal. |
And you just said that evolution is not about "the redemption of the unfit," thereby showing that they're not similar.| From these two starting blocks there will be different outcomes and Evolutionist are responsible for the outcomes of their core ideals. Many social evils follow naturally from the theory of evolution core ideas. |
Evolutionary theories are not social morals to be followed. Anyone who thinks that they are (including you) is horribly mistaken.| This is not the case with Christianity whose core ideals are against social evil. |
Which is why we've had the Inquisitions and the current fads of murdering homosexuals and attempting to prevent women's health care by self-professed Christians, of course.  | You have pointed out some differences but what is the problem with recognizing the parallels between Christianity and Evolution? |
The parallels (if any) are irrelevant if they are not causal.| In the most general sense they both follow the “Redeemer Scenario” which is the most prevalent myth in the world. The idea of a redeemer is as old as mankind. And it can be found in many cultures. There were many people before Jesus who claimed to be the Messiah and there have been many since. Entertainment in our society is so saturated with this idea of a saviour that we take the whole thing for granted. The Western movie is famous for the lone hero who rides into town to save people from a gang of villains. But there are also many adventure, war, action or drama movies feature a hero who suffers and then rescues the innocent. Often in movies a hero appears to die only to have to somehow have escaped death and reappears to everyone's joy. The fact saviour myths existed before the time of Christ doesn't disprove the validity of Christianity. Far from it, if anything they show that in the heart of mankind there has always been the need for a saviour. All Darwin did was adapt this to the natural world. |
None of Darwin's ideas on evolution include the fantasy of a "redeemer." Not one. It is an error to think that a more-fit individual in one generation invariably leads to the extinction of the less-fit that it came from. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 06/14/2008 : 02:42:42 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by no1nose
| Oh, don't be gone. Stick around; we'll have some fun. |
. . . oh OK. I was starting to think that you guys were no fun.
| Just thought I'd let you know that no1nose is basically a forum troll. |
It takes one to know one. Say something interesting and you will get my personal attention.
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Troll, eh? Well, not being entirely thick, we'd pretty much figured that out for ourselves. Also, posting verbatum in multiple fora means that you are that lowest of orgamisms, verely from the foulest Pits of Cyber-Ghenna, a fucking spammer as well. Fie & for shame!
But no matter; we can live with it. Now riddle me this: If Evolution is an off-shoot of the Christian myth (AiG would be most interested in hearing that), why is it not given at least a passing mention in the various creationist writings, that which puts the 'litter' in literature? Other than futile denials and lame to the point hilarity apologetics, of course. One would think that Ham, Morris, Sarfati and Wieland, oh yeah, and Dembski among many others, themselves also not being entirely thick (just mostly), would have picked up on that a long time ago. Why have I never seen a Chick Tract that supported the idea?
Also, my bumptious, little red-headed stepchild, I'd like to mention that the only hint of evolution in the Bible (OT) was from Noah's Excellent Canoe Advanture in Genesis. It's from when the Ark landed on Ararat, or there abouts, and the animals dispursed. Current creationist thought is that Noah only took 'kinds' aboard, that is, like a couple of jackles for canine kind, lynxs for feline kind, and so forth. These are said to have multiplied and diversed into the various species that we know today. In only some four millinia, this "evolution" took place. Do you really believe that? Or do you, as do I, think it's a rousing good sea story to be told in a sheperd's camp? 'Specally the part about all the delicious incest afterward as Noah's family repopulated the earth with lots of swinging and threesomes. Sheperds get lonely, you know.
You are on really thin ice here, logically speaking. You have come up with a premise that has only the faintest of support in Scripture and none at all in science. And indeed, you have to really reach for the Scripture part.
At this point, indeed, well before it, I concluded that your premise is nonsense thought up to try and disrupt this forum (and others, as it turns out). You really have nothing that might give your statements even the least of evidential support. But I do want you to try and change my mind -- I collect bullshit and plan to open a museum of it to compete with Ken Ham's. Care to donate?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 06/14/2008 03:55:11 |
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no1nose
BANNED
50 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2008 : 03:26:16 [Permalink]
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| The parallels (if any) are irrelevant if they are not causal. |
So there may be some parallels?
If you don't know what they are how can you know that they are causal? Sounds like you have already made up your mind and are determined not to chance it. Come on open your minds a little!!
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2008 : 05:18:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by no1nose
| The parallels (if any) are irrelevant if they are not causal. |
So there may be some parallels?
If you don't know what they are how can you know that they are causal? Sounds like you have already made up your mind and are determined not to chance it. Come on open your minds a little!!
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My mind is perfectly open, but not so open that my brains fall out. That's a paraphrase of something Carl Sagan said. Keep trying.
And now I'm off to one of my grand daughter's graduation. Later....
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Darwin’s debt to Christianity
Topic Locked
