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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 07/08/2008 :  06:57:53  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
http://www.state.tn.us/sos/bluebook/05-06/46-tnconst.pdf

Here is a copy of the Tennessee constitution(pdf sorry), buried deep inside what do we find?

Article IX, Section 2
No person who denies the being of God, or a future state of rewards and punishments, shall hold any office in the civil department of this state.

Yet we are obligated to all taxes, military service and legislation. Somebody down there better sue somebody.

filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 07/08/2008 :  07:18:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf

http://www.state.tn.us/sos/bluebook/05-06/46-tnconst.pdf

Here is a copy of the Tennessee constitution(pdf sorry), buried deep inside what do we find?

Article IX, Section 2
No person who denies the being of God, or a future state of rewards and punishments, shall hold any office in the civil department of this state.

Yet we are obligated to all taxes, military service and legislation. Somebody down there better sue somebody.
Ah Tennesee. It's a lovely state, really. I've relatives in those mountains and have spent many happy hours/days/weeks visiting and wandering the hills, hunting squirrel & deer, and searching for Timber Rattlesnake hibernacula. But some things about it are not so pretty.

I think a bitch-note to the ACLU might well be in order.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 07/08/2008 :  07:28:45   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Nah, we need a good plaintiff first, perhaps someone who might wish to run for office.
Edited by - BigPapaSmurf on 07/08/2008 07:29:19
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 07/08/2008 :  09:34:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message  Reply with Quote
At first I thought that maybe it was already contested, overturned, and just remained in the constitution. But this site claims:

Article IX, Section 2 says that atheists can't serve in the General Assembly. No one has challenged this one, but obviously it won't fly either. That section is also contradicted in Article I, Section 4, which says no political or religious test . . . shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under this state.


And another goodie:

Meanwhile, Article IX, Section 3, prohibits people who have dueled from holding office.

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
Edited by - Ricky on 07/08/2008 09:36:28
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 07/08/2008 :  09:53:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I wonder how many other States have such provisions, I'll take Texas/Oklahoma/Kansas, who's up for some reading legalese!

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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Boron10
Religion Moderator

USA
1265 Posts

Posted - 07/08/2008 :  10:55:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Boron10 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I seem to recall a South Carolina professor who ran for public office, partly to contest a similar law.

He didn't get enough votes to contest it.

the fundamental problem with these is that it's very hard to get an atheist elected in any of these states anyway, eh?
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 07/08/2008 :  11:02:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well if the roles were reversed it would be an outrage, naturally.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 07/08/2008 :  11:31:29   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Texas
Preamble
Humbly invoking the blessing of Almighty God, the people of the State of Texas do ordain and establish this Constitution.

Article 1, Bill of Rights
SEC. 4. No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office, or public trust, in this State; nor shall any one be excluded from holding office on account of his religious sentiments, provided he acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being.


Kansas and Oklahoma did much better, nothing overt anyway, they still need to acknoledge God at the beginning though...

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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Simon
SFN Regular

USA
1992 Posts

Posted - 07/08/2008 :  11:33:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Simon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Can my supreme being be Oprah, then?

Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 07/08/2008 :  12:08:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote





"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 07/08/2008 :  12:11:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
"Why couldnt he choose a mainstream religion, like Oprahism...or Voodoo?!?" -The Professor

Im gonna need a political science major to interpret just what the hell Alabama's says, half the damn thing is moot from the US Constitution. They still have white males as the only legal voters. The anti-atheist text seems clean though, it is the second longest Constitution in the world behind India, I may have missed something.

SECTION 1

Equality and rights of men.
That all men are equally free and independent; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

SECTION 86

Suppression of dueling.
The legislature shall pass such penal laws as it may deem expedient to suppress the evil practice of dueling.

181
This makes it so only people who read/write or own 40+acres can vote, i.e. white people

Here's a game, can you find the problem in this Section?
SECTION 182

Certain persons disqualified from registering and voting.
The following persons shall be disqualified both from registering, and from voting, namely:

All idiots and insane persons; those who shall by reason of conviction of crime be disqualified from voting at the time of the ratification of this Constitution; those who shall be convicted of treason, murder, arson, embezzlement, malfeasance in office, larceny, receiving stolen property, obtaining property or money under false pretenses, perjury, subornation of perjury, robbery, assault with intent to rob, burglary, forgery, bribery, assault and battery on the wife, bigamy, living in adultery, sodomy, incest, rape, miscegenation, crime against nature, or any crime punishable by imprisonment in the penitentiary, or of any infamous crime or crime involving moral turpitude; also, any person who shall be convicted as a vagrant or tramp, or of selling or offering to sell his vote or the vote of another, or of buying or offering to buy the vote of another, or of making or offering to make a false return in any election by the people or in any primary election to procure the nomination or election of any person to any office, or of suborning any witness or registrar to secure the registration of any person as an elector.
---
Miscegenation, what an unusual word. The term "crime against nature" seem suspect as I don't think they had Superfund in mind. Moral turpitude and the "any crime punishable by imprisonment in the penitentiary" thing are also suspect, who knows what was illegal back then.



SECTION 256 School segregation required

Damn nightmare document, only 800 amendments.
Edited by - BigPapaSmurf on 07/08/2008 12:19:15
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 07/08/2008 :  12:16:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This post has been annulled by Amendment #1
Edited by - BigPapaSmurf on 07/08/2008 12:18:55
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Jumbo
New Member

24 Posts

Posted - 07/09/2008 :  01:42:04   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Jumbo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ive seen this before on Richard Dawkins site and this was my response then:


Constitution Of The State Of Arkansas Of 1874.
Article 19. Miscellaneous Provisions.
§ 1. Atheists disqualified from holding office or testifying as witness.

No person who denies the being of a God shall hold any office in the civil departments of this State, nor be competent to testify as a witness in any Court.

(Source http://www.sos.arkansas.gov/ar-constitution/arcart19/arcart19-1.htm)


North Carolina Constitution
ARTICLE VI

SUFFRAGE AND ELIGIBILITY TO OFFICE
Sec. 8. Disqualifications for office.

The following persons shall be disqualified for office:

First, any person who shall deny the being of Almighty God.

(Source http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/Legislation/constitution/article6.html)


The Texas Constitution
Article 1 - BILL OF RIGHTS
Section 4 - RELIGIOUS TESTS
No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office, or public trust, in this State; nor shall any one be excluded from holding office on account of his religious sentiments, provided he acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being.

(Source http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/txconst/sections/cn000100-000400.html)


South Carolina Constitution:

ARTICLE IV.

EXECUTIVE DEPARTMENT

SECTION 2. Qualifications of Governor.

No person shall be eligible to the office of Governor who denies the existence of the Supreme Being; and who on the date of such election has not attained the age of thirty years; and who shall not have been a citizen of the United States and a citizen and resident of this State for five years next preceding the day of election. No person while Governor shall hold any office or other commission (except in the militia) under the authority of this State, or of any other power. (1972 (57) 3171; 1973 (58) 48.)

(Source http://www.scstatehouse.net/scconstitution/a04.htm)

South Carolina again:
ARTICLE XVII.

MISCELLANEOUS MATTERS

SECTION 4. Supreme Being.

No person who denies the existence of a Supreme Being shall hold any office under this Constitution.

(Source http://www.scstatehouse.net/scconstitution/a17.htm)


Tennessee:
ARTICLE IX
Disqualifications.

Section 2. No person who denies the being of God, or a future state of rewards
and punishments, shall hold any office in the civil department of this
state.

(Source pdf file:http://state.tn.us/sos/bluebook/05-06/46-tnconst.pdf)

I believe in each case these are overruled by other laws (above the state level) making them uneneforcable but the texts have not been removed despite many of the state constitutions having been amended several times in other areas.

The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be lighted
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Jumbo
New Member

24 Posts

Posted - 07/09/2008 :  02:05:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Jumbo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Surprisingly Kansas (from 1975 at least) seems to not require religion

Sec. 7. The right to worship God according to the dictates of con-
science shall never be infringed; nor shall any person be
compelled to attend or support any form of worship, nor
shall any control of or interference with the rights of
conscience be permitted, nor any preference be given by law
to any religious establishment or mode of worship. No
religious test or property qualification shall be required
for any office of public trust, nor for any vote at any
election, nor shall any person be incompetent to testify on
account of religious belief.

http://www.harbornet.com/rights/kansas.txt

Oklahoma doesnt have a religious requirement either and even allows affirmations rather than swearing oaths.

Maryland howevr has the gem:

Art. 36. That as it is the duty of every man to worship God in such manner as he thinks most acceptable to Him, all persons are equally entitled to protection in their religious liberty; wherefore, no person ought by any law to be molested in his person or estate, on account of his religious persuasion, or profession, or for his religious practice, unless, under the color of religion, he shall disturb the good order, peace or safety of the State, or shall infringe the laws of morality, or injure others in their natural, civil or religious rights; nor ought any person to be compelled to frequent, or maintain, or contribute, unless on contract, to maintain, any place of worship, or any ministry; nor shall any person, otherwise competent, be deemed incompetent as a witness, or juror, on account of his religious belief; provided, he believes in the existence of God, and that under His dispensation such person will be held morally accountable for his acts, and be rewarded or punished therefor either in this world or in the world to come.

Nothing shall prohibit or require the making reference to belief in, reliance upon, or invoking the aid of God or a Supreme Being in any governmental or public document, proceeding, activity, ceremony, school, institution, or place.

Nothing in this article shall constitute an establishment of religion (amended by Chapter 558, Acts of 1970, ratified Nov. 3, 1970).

Art. 37. That no religious test ought ever to be required as a qualification for any office of profit or trust in this State, other than a declaration of belief in the existence of God; nor shall the Legislature prescribe any other oath of office than the oath prescribed by this Constitution.

http://www.msa.md.gov/msa/mdmanual/43const/html/00dec.html

Pennsylvania has:

Religion
Section 4.
No person who acknowledges the being of a God and a future state of rewards and punishments shall, on account of his religious sentiments, be disqualified to hold any office or place of trust or profit under this Commonwealth.

http://sites.state.pa.us/PA_Constitution.html

So if you are not a believer you may be (but arent guaranteed to be) ineligible for office.

As before i think all of these are superceeded or whatever but its worrying that with all the amending of state constitutions thats gone on over the years there is so much of this left in even if its unenforcable.

The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be lighted
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Simon
SFN Regular

USA
1992 Posts

Posted - 07/09/2008 :  07:00:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Simon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I also wonder how that is applicable to religion like Boudhism or Taoism that do not believe in gods.
Or Religion like Hinduism or Shinto that believe in gods but not in God(tm).


Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 07/09/2008 :  07:10:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Simon says "No office for you!"

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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