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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 07/08/2008 :  17:52:10  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A stupid, fucking cracker, uneaten, sends ripples of hatred through out the lands of the sacred shitheads.
I find this all utterly unbelievable. It's like Dark Age superstition and malice, all thriving with the endorsement of secular institutions here in 21st century America. It is a culture of deluded lunatics calling the shots and making human beings dance to their mythical bunkum.
Like PZ, I would like to get hold of one or more of these things so that I could send it to the leaders of these assholes in proper condition.

The sheer stupidity of this situation defies belief, but then, that's religion for you.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

the_ignored
SFN Addict

2557 Posts

Posted - 07/08/2008 :  17:54:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send the_ignored a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I was just coming here to post that! Goddamit, that's the second time today I've been scooped by you!


>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.

What brought that on? this. Original posting here.

Another example of this guy's lunacy here.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 07/08/2008 :  18:51:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by the_ignored

I was just coming here to post that! Goddamit, that's the second time today I've been scooped by you!


Sorry 'bout that... They were a couple of doozies, weren't they?

But the insanity continues; I've just read that the Freshwater business has all but divided the town where he taught. Nothing but the foolishness of believing and having faith in the unbelievable could have accomplished any of this.

I'm certain that when our final trumpet, as it were, sounds it will be due to the world's major cults having at each other's throats for no better reason than the mindless violence of the teachings of their churchs.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26001 Posts

Posted - 07/08/2008 :  19:42:33   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is just one of the many reasons why I've decided that I need to speak out against religion in all its forms, from whack-job nuttery like the above all the way down to the most "liberal" of deists. The difference between the extremes is simply a matter of degree, not of kind, and that makes them all dangerous in my book.

I know we've had this discussion before, but I've been thinking. The issue tends to revolve around two points. One is that "we" (freethinkers or whatever we want to call ourselves) need the more-liberal theists to be on our side as far as legislation and other social policies go, just to gain a larger voting bloc than we would otherwise have alone. This is where the idiotic "framers" (like Chris Mooney) come in to tell us that being angry atheists will split us from our theistic friends who share the same goals, but the framers don't seem to have a lick of evidence to back up their assertions. The truth seems to be that the asshats who wish to legislate their own version of the Bible will be countered by other asshats who've got conflicting ideas about the Bible. Non-religious people are small enough in number now that we're surely not solely responsible for keeping the Ten Commandments out of public schools. Show of hands as to who thinks the Catholics would be just fine with public schools having lesson plans based upon Protestant theology... didn't think so.

Two is that we should, for some reason, respect other people's beliefs. I'll give complete strangers the same amount of respect for simply being human that I would hope they give me, and I'll add more as people demonstrate their individual respectability. Beliefs in crap? I should have no obligation to respect zany ideas, and so refuse to. And because it seems that the more nutty the belief, the more likely it is that individuals holding said belief will demand respect for it, I plan on disrepecting it by a proportional amount, openly and freely.

The most-liberal of deists, mentioned above? The ones who think that some god set up the universe and remained purposefully hidden since then? Theirs is a god that is simply irrelevant and an utter waste of time. Even if such ideas offer "comfort" or "purpose" to the people who hold them, they're misplaced in what should be a rational world. I'd much rather have people getting depressed instead of finding such false "comfort" because depression is treatable, whereas religion is not (yet).

Things can only get worse as beliefs climb the scale from the irrelevant to the whackaloony. According respect to the least harmless gives those who harbor more-harmful beliefs a standing they don't deserve. "See?" they ask, pointing to the most-sane of them, "not all religious people want to kill a guy for stealing a communion wafer!" Well, so what? That doesn't make their beliefs less irrational, it only makes them look less irrational by comparison.

It's like the child-rapist pointing to the child-fondler and screeching, "see, we're not all child murderers!" Give me a break.

It's time to take a stand, and oppose lunacy at every turn. We, the minority, get no substantive benefit from kowtowing to unreasonable beliefs, no matter how harmless they appear. To appease the least-dangerous among the irrational gives aid to all of the irrational.

Of course, this is not to say that I'm going to go throw buckets of goat's blood into my neighborhood church (my closest church actually meets in an elementary school, which is pretty bad on its own). I have no plans to even go so far as PZ says he's going to regarding the cracker. I'm a "tit for tat" kinda guy, and going overboard in response is simply needless antagonism (although the death threats surely deserve a rather large "tat," but it's gotta be directed at the right people). Simply put, people who expect me to even pay lip service to their beliefs are going to meet ridicule in response. People who try to put my secular tax dollars to work for the faithful (like Obama) will lose my support. Even people who begin a story with "so after church last Sunday" as if it should be a normal activity are going to be met with at least an eye-roll, if not a "why did you go to church?"

I'm sick of this nonsense. Holding my tongue increases my blood pressure and maintains a peace that will never, ever work in my favor. When a compromise is entirely a one-way benefit, it's not a compromise, it's rolling over. Screw that.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 07/08/2008 :  20:36:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dave_W said:
I'm sick of this nonsense. Holding my tongue increases my blood pressure and maintains a peace that will never, ever work in my favor. When a compromise is entirely a one-way benefit, it's not a compromise, it's rolling over. Screw that.

I never hold my tounge.... my fingers always taste like soap.

But yeah. I rarely remain silent in the face of this crap.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13462 Posts

Posted - 07/08/2008 :  21:24:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There is no reason to keep silent about this kind of crap. There is no reason not to call an irrational belief for what it is. Fundamentalist whack jobs, theocrats and people who would impose their irrational beliefs on others through intimidation, threats, and hate and even legislation should be fought.

A deist belief may be irrational, but our tolerance of their belief does not mean we are agreeing that it is more or less rational than a fundamentalist Christian belief. We are tolerant because we should be. Short of reason, tolerance is the best we can hope for.

The cracker story is a story of intolerance. Intolerance is what should be fought.

I am not yet convinced that being tolerant of what I consider to be an irrational belief will lead to more intolerance. But there is a long and ugly history of what intolerance will get you…

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 07/08/2008 :  21:37:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Two is that we should, for some reason, respect other people's beliefs. I'll give complete strangers the same amount of respect for simply being human that I would hope they give me, and I'll add more as people demonstrate their individual respectability. Beliefs in crap? I should have no obligation to respect zany ideas, and so refuse to. And because it seems that the more nutty the belief, the more likely it is that individuals holding said belief will demand respect for it, I plan on disrepecting it by a proportional amount, openly and freely.


Can you clarify what you mean by respect? Are you talking about cutting off people who have the Jesus fish on the back of their cars? Or is it more like, "I want nothing to do with you" kind of respect?

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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the_ignored
SFN Addict

2557 Posts

Posted - 07/08/2008 :  22:30:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send the_ignored a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dude

Dave_W said:
I'm sick of this nonsense. Holding my tongue increases my blood pressure and maintains a peace that will never, ever work in my favor. When a compromise is entirely a one-way benefit, it's not a compromise, it's rolling over. Screw that.

I never hold my tounge.... my fingers always taste like soap.

But yeah. I rarely remain silent in the face of this crap.



And that's why I hang out at places like Comfort's blog: to show any fence-sitters the rational side of things (hopefully) and to provide information about science and reality.

How am I doing? I'm arguing with a guy named Sye TenB there. A more alien mind set I've never run into. Just going around in circles. At least in other posts I've mentioned the TalkOrigins archive, places where "messianic prophecy" is refuted, etc.

Goodness knows that the religous people who post there are beyond reason, but they're not the focus.


>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.

What brought that on? this. Original posting here.

Another example of this guy's lunacy here.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26001 Posts

Posted - 07/09/2008 :  03:04:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Kil, as soon as you demonstrate that the sort of religious beliefs that lead people to perform physically risky exorcisms or to waste resources (like collecting money for third-world distribution of Bibles) are the result of intolerance, then I'll agree with you. You shouldn't forget, though, that even the best of intentions can turn destructive when based upon ignorance or superstition. I see no reason to be tolerant of any irrational belief. As I said, the patently ridiculous only differ by degree from the seemingly harmless. They don't differ in type.

And to re-iterate, our being tolerant of even the least dangerous irrational beliefs only benefits (and only can benefit) those who hold such beliefs. Our tolerance doesn't benefit us, and so it turns us into doormats, willing to be stepped on for the sake of a moral high ground which will be ignored, at best.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26001 Posts

Posted - 07/09/2008 :  04:36:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ricky

Can you clarify what you mean by respect? Are you talking about cutting off people who have the Jesus fish on the back of their cars? Or is it more like, "I want nothing to do with you" kind of respect?
Disrespect as disrespect is due. Using my car as a weapon isn't disrespect, it's insane.

But you know what's funny? I once argued in these pages that Darwin Fish emblems are disrespectful and don't actually target the people they're meant to target. While I still think they're mostly off-target, I no longer care that they're disrespectful. Screw 'em if they can't take a joke.

I may have to finally buy an FSM fish, though. They're appropriately targeted.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 07/09/2008 :  08:18:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Some oaf stole my latest Darwin fish and I haven't gotten around to replacing it. Indeed, I might not bother, as this is either the third or forth one I've lost this way in the last few years.

Odd isn't it, that these sanctimonius clowns think nothing of breaking any of the commandments if it suits their purpose? And yet they would hammer us over the head with them and insist that we obey them to the letter, including & especially the superstitious drivel of the first four.

That's the way to earn respect, Churchy! Keep up the good work.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 07/09/2008 :  08:20:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by Ricky

Can you clarify what you mean by respect? Are you talking about cutting off people who have the Jesus fish on the back of their cars? Or is it more like, "I want nothing to do with you" kind of respect?
Disrespect as disrespect is due. Using my car as a weapon isn't disrespect, it's insane.


I should have been more straightforward. Are you going to go out of your way to disrespect someone who holds an irrational belief? Or is it only those who come to you?

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
Edited by - Ricky on 07/09/2008 08:22:38
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26001 Posts

Posted - 07/09/2008 :  08:25:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ricky

I should have been more straightforward. Are you going to go out of your way to disrespect someone who holds an irrational belief? Or is it only those who come to you?
Never let it be said that I did more than the least I could do.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Simon
SFN Regular

USA
1992 Posts

Posted - 07/09/2008 :  11:11:08   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Simon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, the guy seems to went really out of his way to insult them. He went to the church, sit through the couple of hours of the mass just to that he could pull his little prank.

That's why my own outrage is somewhat limited. Not that I disagree that the troubles he already went through are already well beyond what he deserved.

Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13462 Posts

Posted - 07/09/2008 :  13:45:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dave:
And to re-iterate, our being tolerant of even the least dangerous irrational beliefs only benefits (and only can benefit) those who hold such beliefs. Our tolerance doesn't benefit us, and so it turns us into doormats, willing to be stepped on for the sake of a moral high ground which will be ignored, at best.


The moment we throw people like Hal Bidlack out of our ranks based on our intolerance of a belief that gives him comfort, we loose the kind of person who can be even more effective than we can be at persuading others with a god belief that a secular approach to science and politics is the only one that makes sense. We can disagree with him until the cows come home about his actual belief, but from a practical point of view, casting people like him out of our camp would be counter productive.

We need people like Kenneth Miller to let people of faith know that there is more than one way to view science, especially from a religious standpoint.

We need people like Jimmy Carter to tell other evangelicals where they have gone wrong; ‘cause they ain't gonna listen to us.

I am not suggesting that we drop our skepticism of their beliefs. But there is a bigger picture to consider.

Unless we actually believe that wiping religion off the face of the earth is doable, we need to work with those people of faith who are on our side from a political and scientific standpoint. It is in those areas that our tolerance does benefit us. There is, of course, no need to be tolerant of those people who are not tolerant of us.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 07/09/2008 :  15:54:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Kil said:
We need people like Jimmy Carter to tell other evangelicals where they have gone wrong; ‘cause they ain't gonna listen to us.


What makes you think the Red State Retards would ever listen to Jimmy Carter?


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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