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just_some_guy
New Member

19 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2008 :  19:22:34  Show Profile Send just_some_guy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think I am going to vote for a 3rd party this time around( with regards to the presidential election), I've been given alot of flak for it. Mostly in the form of 'you are wasting your vote' and the other favorite I hear 'well, all you are doing is helping so-and-so get elected, have you no shame?'

I just wanted others opinions on voting outside the box, I feel alot of our problems in this nation is the left/right polarization and the parties being taken over by wing nuts. Hell, the 'conservative' party that is supppose to be for less govt and taxes and more freedom has been over run by religious nutters that want to spend more and push their dogmatic bullshit upon me, and well the left seems to be taken over by the extreme as well.

Its like some false dichotomy of politics has been thrown over US.


Anyway, enough with my stupid mini rant, I just wanted to get some input from others on the subject.

is 3rd party a waste of a vote?



Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2008 :  20:04:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by just_some_guy

I think I am going to vote for a 3rd party this time around( with regards to the presidential election), I've been given alot of flak for it. Mostly in the form of 'you are wasting your vote' and the other favorite I hear 'well, all you are doing is helping so-and-so get elected, have you no shame?'

I just wanted others opinions on voting outside the box, I feel alot of our problems in this nation is the left/right polarization and the parties being taken over by wing nuts. Hell, the 'conservative' party that is supppose to be for less govt and taxes and more freedom has been over run by religious nutters that want to spend more and push their dogmatic bullshit upon me, and well the left seems to be taken over by the extreme as well.

Its like some false dichotomy of politics has been thrown over US.


Anyway, enough with my stupid mini rant, I just wanted to get some input from others on the subject.

is 3rd party a waste of a vote?






Not really.

It's not particularly effective by dillution, but it isn't wasted.

The third party vote can be an effective way to get the main campaigns to listen to your complaints. With Robertson's Presidential bid (Silly Party), and Nader's near Paulsonian Presidential campaign (Narcisist Party) either side will start to listen to the greivances of the third party.

The way third parties can gain momentum is by concentrating on the local government first. You can also group third parties by the makeup of most of the former party affiliations of the members.

Libertarians - pissed off Republicans, greivance is big government
Greens - Democrats usually young, grievance is ecological protection
LaRouche - Republicans, whack job Kool-aide drinking types. Very small. Represents the lunatic fringe of political society.
America for all - Perot's party. Only one with any staying power in the last 100 years at the national level. Republicans. Greivance is fiscal responsibility.
Independant - Mix of disenfranchised moderates of both parties. Greivance is the extremists running both major parties.

Over time, it's worth something. As a form of political protest, it's worthless.

The Democrats and Republicans both started as third parties.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2008 :  20:16:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
At this juncture I would not consider voting third party. I have, in the past, done so.

But the republicans have to go. Period. And Obama is not so far away from most of my thinking that I consider him a lesser of two evils candidate.


The consequences of voting third party this time around are not worth considering.

Maybe 2012 or 2016.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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just_some_guy
New Member

19 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2008 :  20:19:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send just_some_guy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dude


The consequences of voting third party this time around are not worth considering.

Maybe 2012 or 2016.




what do you mean by that?
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13467 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2008 :  20:23:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
just_some_guy:
...the left seems to be taken over by the extreme as well.

How so?

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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just_some_guy
New Member

19 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2008 :  20:24:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send just_some_guy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
[i]Originally posted by Dude
But the republicans have to go.




Yes in the current form the republicans have become nothing but a sock puppet for the religous right. And a fucking shame as well, cause I understand it the party was not founded on those ideas that the modern jerk- off right winger would have you think
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just_some_guy
New Member

19 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2008 :  20:38:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send just_some_guy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil

just_some_guy:
...the left seems to be taken over by the extreme as well.

How so?


social universal health care
trying to negoiate with relgion and giving respect to the leaders there of
trying to pass wide sweeping eco laws with out allowing informed free markets to decide

to name a few things I have issue with in regards to the left
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13467 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2008 :  20:58:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by just_some_guy

Originally posted by Kil

just_some_guy:
...the left seems to be taken over by the extreme as well.

How so?


social universal health care
trying to negoiate with relgion and giving respect to the leaders there of
trying to pass wide sweeping eco laws with out allowing informed free markets to decide

to name a few things I have issue with in regards to the left
Huh. Well, I guess the third party you are planning to vote for won't be Nadar's... Can I guess?

Ahhh, forget it. I don't want to hijack this thread...

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26012 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2008 :  21:17:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Informed free markets have brought us the mortgage/credit crisis and our current gas prices, haven't they? Of course not, those industries are pretty heavily regulated.

I ask everyone I meet who is in favor of free markets to name one that has occured at any point in history outside of a school experiment or demonstration. Nobody has done so, to date. On that basis, I question whether there is any actual empirical evidence that free markets will function as advertised in the real world.

On the other hand, most European countries are real-world examples of functioning and productive socialized medicine.

As far as the religion thing goes, good luck on that one. A majority of the populace thinks that atheists are the least trustworthy of any "religious" group. A person who fails to at least give convincing lip service to the religious in this country doesn't stand a chance at being elected, because their opponent(s) will surely point out such a flaw.

There are lots of parties to choose from, though.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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bngbuck
SFN Addict

USA
2437 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2008 :  23:45:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send bngbuck a Private Message  Reply with Quote
JSG.....

Dude is right. This time (2008), no thinking person could possibly vote anything but a solid Democratic ticket. Not because the Democrats are vastly "better' than the Republicans, they are not. Generally, and in recent times, they tend to be marginally less obsessed with power and promotion of self-serving political causes than the GOP, but there have been horribly bad examples of Democratic politics at all levels in the past, and there have been a few reasonably responsible Republicans.

But this bullshit that we have been enduring under the Bush administration is unprecedented in my lifetime (nearly eighty years).

The Republican brand has been appropriated by a group of neo-fascists, who are hell-bent on a program to give nearly dictatorial power to the Republican in the Chief Executive office - whose agenda is dictated almost exclusively by the mega-rich and big, big business and corporate interests.

The Constitution, the Bill of Rights, Habeas Corpus, and most of the legal structures upon which this country was founded are in serious danger of being dismantled in favor of rule by executive fiat - currently exemplified by Dick Cheney and George Bush.

The same very rich and powerful forces that placed Bush and Cheney in power will unquestionably govern McCain if he and a Republican Congress are elected. He may have been a "maverick" as a Senator, but he will be a puppet as President! Because with control of the White House and Congress, the political dynamic will not change from what we have had for the past eight years. The same power bases will exert the same overwhelming influence in the same way they have since the year 2000.

The only thing one can be sure of with Obama, is that his administration will be starkly different than the Bush administration has been. The mere fact that he is a black intellectual will assure that! But no matter what his policies (with a Democratic Congress) may turn out to be, they will be better than the near fascism that we are approaching with the Bush neocons dictating policy!

If you must vote a third party to symbolically express to yourself your disgust with both major parties, vote for Libertarian Bob Barr; as that will have precisely the same effect as voting for Obama - it will take a vote away from McCain.
Dude:
The consequences of voting third party this time around are not worth considering.

Maybe 2012 or 2016.
By 2012 or 2016, a lot of right-wing reversal will have taken place, and it may be time to try and shake up the entrenched two-party system with a serious attempt at a third-party candidate.

But in 2008, either a Republican or a Democrat will win the White House, and we will have either an indecisive near-balanced Congress or we will have a strong Democratic Congress that will allow Obama to actually make some desperately-needed changes!

Edited by - bngbuck on 07/25/2008 23:50:15
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13467 Posts

Posted - 07/26/2008 :  01:49:49   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh well. So much for resisting...

Pretty much what Dude, Dave and Bill said. I would only add that many of the deregulations that have happened (mostly during the Reagan presidency) has screwed up our economy much more than it has helped it. You really don't have to look much further than the current home lending crisis, which can be traced directly back to banking deregulation as an example of that. And that doesn't say much for an informed free market.


Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9677 Posts

Posted - 07/26/2008 :  02:38:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What needs to be eliminated is all the negative campaigning.
People get tired of it and stay home instead of voting.
The alarmingly low percentage of voters in USA makes me reluctant of calling USA a democracy. The political scene has to be reformed to allow for a decentralisation of power: Not just Either/Or the Democrats or Republicans.
A parliament with many parities will more represent the population than just two parties.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: The American Democrat-Republican power structure is only one party removed from the Soviet single-party system. But the way the Senate is set up, I can't see how it can be otherwise. The House of Representatives should have more independents/third-party members, the way it should be.

But for now, and until laws and regulations for political campaigning can be adjusted to be more favourable to small parties (preventing the Republican money bulldozer flattening them), a Democratic vote is more important than a third party. For now.
Democrats should be more open to political reforms...


Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 07/26/2008 :  03:53:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
'S your vote, bro. Cast it in good conscience.

I used to love election day. I'd jump on the chop and be there when the polls opened, the bike's straight pipes echoing over the countryside in the chill, November air, my decisions made after studying the various candidates. As an Independent, my ballot was a mixture of parties, including 3rd, representing who I thought was best qualified for the job. But no more; the Republicans have to go! As it stands in this election, I'd vote for a little, red hen before anyone from the Party of Reagan/Bush(s). We'd get about the same level of intellect and we can certainly use the eggs.

Beyond that, everyone else has said it better than I could.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Edited by - filthy on 07/26/2008 03:55:48
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 07/26/2008 :  06:22:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
just some guy asked:
what do you mean by that?

What I mean is simple. If Nader had not been a candidate in 2000, Gore would have won FL (and the presidency) by a very clear margin. Not that I liked Gore in 2000, just sayin.

Third party candidates, at the moment, are just spoilers. They drain votes from one of the two main candidates (and lets face it, one of the two big parties is going to win anyway).

The consequences of voting third party are an increase in the chance of the big party candidate that you least agree with winning.

Pragmatism says that right now, if you want the republicans and neocons gone from power, you can't vote third party.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 07/26/2008 :  07:12:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This isn't some plug for Ron Paul is it?

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 07/26/2008 :  08:17:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Probably Bob Barr, the libertarian guy.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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