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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4953 Posts

Posted - 10/08/2008 :  07:11:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Robb
Neither clown could follow the rules that their campaigns agreed to, no wonder our government cannot follow its own rules.

Nothing new was said, both clowns distorted the other clowns views and policies while only talking about the points in their own plans that they think we would like.
I agree that the whole "debate" format needs to be address next time around. It's particularly frustrating when long-debunked talking points are thrown out ("he wants to raise your taxes!") with impunity.

If you are rich or poor in this country do these clowns have anything to offer you? All they talk about is "main street". Does all this country care abnout is money? I agree things are bad, and need to be addressed but there are still homeless, poor, hungry and sick in this country that has never been addressed in this campaign by any clown running for president. I am concerned about my money and how it will impact my job and how I will provide for my family. But I will be ok, I am lucky to have a family and a good education. What happens to people that don't? Shouldn't government have a responsibility to all americans, especially the people that cannot help themselves, not just the ones that will get them elected?
You're right. Though, I really think that Obama has more in mind than McCain on this. Seriously, more tax-breaks for the fabulously wealthy and a horrible health care reform idea are just not in America's best interest.

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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1213 Posts

Posted - 10/08/2008 :  07:25:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

Originally posted by Robb
But I will be ok, I am lucky to have a family and a good education. What happens to people that don't? Shouldn't government have a responsibility to all americans, especially the people that cannot help themselves, not just the ones that will get them elected?

You mean like universal health care, and upgrading the funding and quality of schools?




I agree with universal health care, even Martians should have good health coverage. I do agree that everyone should have health care but I just do not agree that having the government running it in the US is a good idea.

Before we put one more dime into public education we need know where and how the money is spent. In my local big city school districts every year they have money that they cannot account for and nothing is done about it. The DISD went over budget last year $64 million and now they are firing teachers because if they do not they will at go over at least $64 million this year. The school board voted that they have confidence in the superintendant and will not fire him. ???????

More money to school districts without a revamping of how they run is a waste of money.


Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. Jn 3:18

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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Simon
SFN Regular

USA
1992 Posts

Posted - 10/08/2008 :  07:47:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Simon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by HalfMooner

Originally posted by Simon

Did McLame just avoid shaking Obama's hand?
That was terrible. Along with referring to his fellow Senator as "that one," I really do think McCain has expressed both his personal racism and signalled racists in general that he's one of the "good ol' boys."
I also believe that McCain is a spiteful and vindictive man who never forgets nor forgives anyone who ever crosses him. (I think this is why he has Karl Rove's lackey Steve Schmidt on his staff, but not Rove himself. Rove did nasty things to John during his 2000 campaign for president, and John just can't stand him.)


I am not sure, as maybe the shake occurred out of camera.
Otherwise; McCain might just be pissed, he is loosing the race and probably realized that he got trounced during the debate. McCain is, by all accounts, easily irritable. It is not necessarily racism (didn't he adopt a black child?).

But, really, if it happened, it is in bad form and comes out as petty and unpersonable... it's going to cost him points.
Same reason why he only stayed the minimum of time. Really the guy is not fit to be president if he can not control his temper better.
It might also be a sign that he does not believe in victory any more and is just going through the minimal amount of efforts...

Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 10/08/2008 :  08:21:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Robb said:
The first thing McCain says is that he wants the government to spend more of our money to buy bad mortgages and reduce the principle on them. Maybe I heard wrong but what?

Yes Robb, McCain said he was going to buy up the bad mortgages. An analyst from WSJ siad today that this would amount to ANOTHER $300billion on top of the more than one trillion in bailouts we have done in the last couple of months. If there is one thing I agree with conservatives on its the absurdity of this crap. If a company makes a trillion dollars woth of bad decisions, fuck them. If their decisions negatively impact the entire US economy, criminally prosecute them. I'm pretty damn tired of this government bailout grabage, especially since we taxpayers are getting no stake in these companies. If we were getting some voting shares of AIG, Fannie/Freddie, the auto industry, and whomever else we were giving billions to, I might be more comfortable.

The execs at AIG, in case you didn't know, went on a $500,000 weekend retreat just afeter we gave their company $200-300billion. Lehman brothers execs managed to get themselves hundreds of millions in bonus cash after their massive bank collapsed. Its disgusting.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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astropin
SFN Regular

USA
962 Posts

Posted - 10/08/2008 :  08:48:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send astropin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dude

Tonight's presidential debate:

1. McCain, when he says "my friends", sounds fucking creepy.



That is the first thing my wife said!

The debate was not great....I agree with Rob to a degree (but I'm voting for Obama). The debate was not even a tie....Obama won it but not by any sort of landslide. Even tie's do McCain absolutely NO GOOD. You know your in good shape when even GOP strategist (Castellanos) admit that Obama took a slight victory.

I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.

You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.

Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.

Infinitus est numerus stultorum
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
12756 Posts

Posted - 10/08/2008 :  10:16:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Robb:
I agree with universal health care, even Martians should have good health coverage. I do agree that everyone should have health care but I just do not agree that having the government running it in the US is a good idea.

Who then? At the very least, insurance companies should be not for profit entities. But how do we get that kind of restructuring done? Healthcare has been left to the privet sector and just look at where we are now. The health insurance companies look at the bottom line first because they must preform for shareholders. How do we get them to change without serious government intervention? The idea that the privet sector will ever provide universal healthcare is magical thinking. Why should they?

I just don't see a way that every person can be insured, no matter what their income is, without a government program. It's simply not possible.

I think it's telling that Obama said that healthcare is a right. McCain couldn't bring himself to go there.

Don't get me wrong. I am highly skeptical that Obama's plan will result in universal healthcare. Not unless even a significantly reduced cost of healthcare is paid for out of some kind of public fund for people who have trouble even paying the rent and can't afford another bill to pay.

By the way, McCain's plan is absurd. There are plenty of people working close or below the poverty level. Offering them a 5000 dollar tax credit to buy healthcare, when they don't even pay taxes, or pay very little, will buy them nothing because they will receive nothing. Perhaps McCain has failed to look at the cost of premiums and the deductibles that go with them. The working poor would be fucked and even the lower middle class would be hardly better off than they are now. The deductibles on affordable insurance, and the limits on those plans, which usually won't insure people with pre-existing conditions, do not provide adequate coverage and regularly push those people into bankruptcy if they actually do get sick.


Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Free The West Memphis Three
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
12756 Posts

Posted - 10/08/2008 :  10:47:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
By the way, McCain did shake Obama's hand. Even at the end of the debate. It was at the moment that Tom Brokaw asked them to move from his line of sight to his teleprompter so he could read it.

I think what we saw was really just an awkward moment and probably shouldn't make a lot out of it.

Sorry...

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Free The West Memphis Three
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 10/08/2008 :  10:48:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
17 lies, but who keeps track?

The Rude Pundit does, well, after a fashion anyway.

But, uh-oh, it seems that there might be a little freaky chemistry, homeopathy combined with sleeping pills, turning our fearless Republican into a shuffling, noisey zombie searching for brains. I've wondered about McCain's health, but if this is true, I need wonder no more.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
12756 Posts

Posted - 10/08/2008 :  10:58:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by filthy
But, uh-oh, it seems that there might be a little freaky chemistry, homeopathy combined with sleeping pills, turning our fearless Republican into a shuffling, noisey zombie searching for brains. I've wondered about McCain's health, but if this is true, I need wonder no more.





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Oy vey...


Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Free The West Memphis Three
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 10/08/2008 :  13:31:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil

Originally posted by filthy
But, uh-oh, it seems that there might be a little freaky chemistry, homeopathy combined with sleeping pills, turning our fearless Republican into a shuffling, noisey zombie searching for brains. I've wondered about McCain's health, but if this is true, I need wonder no more.





http://www.nutrition53.com/products/neuro1/

Mental Performance Formula

Neuro1 to help support the following Mental Performance functions:

* Enhances Learning Capacity and Information Retention
* Improves Memory Processing and Recall
* Speeds Cognitive Processing Performance
* Protects and Improves Long Term Brain Function
* Promotes Calm Concentration Under Stress


Oy vey...


Yeh. A doozy, ain't it? But it's ads are not so far out of the mainstream for that sort of nostrum.

The question is that, if the report is true, what sleeping medication is he taking and what are the doses of both. He looked like warmed-over shit in an expensive suit last night and often walked with a marked shuffle. And that eye-blink thing was back.

A lot of vets came out of his era with a medication dependence, including myself (Percodan -- Krusty the Klown and I are brothers in chemistry). It would be interesting to know what McCain's medication history might be, and, while normally I'd say that it was none of our damned business, this guy remains a prospective US president. We really don't need a pill-junky in that office. Especally with Palin on the sideline waiting for the apple's inevitable fall.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15821 Posts

Posted - 10/08/2008 :  14:33:45   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

Originally posted by Robb
But I will be ok, I am lucky to have a family and a good education. What happens to people that don't? Shouldn't government have a responsibility to all americans, especially the people that cannot help themselves, not just the ones that will get them elected?

You mean like universal health care, and upgrading the funding and quality of schools?




Easy for you high-falutin' Swedes to say. You have schools and medical care for your people.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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bngbuck
SFN Addict

USA
2437 Posts

Posted - 10/08/2008 :  14:45:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send bngbuck a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Robb.....

Who wants to vote for either of these clowns.
Robb, many people feel that way and have for many, many years over many, many elections! But all of them, including you, miss the point.

The way the system is now, a citizen has to choose between the Democrat and the Republican political philosophies. Not on a graven-in-stone permanent basis; but on an election by election basis. No other choice makes sense other than Democrat or Republican!

No thinking person will find an exact equity between the positions of the two parties, whether it's on positive aspects or negative. So it should be possible for anyone of nominal intelligence to carefully assess the strengths and weaknesses of Repub versus Dem, and decide which way to go at each election.

But to take a position to vote for a third alternative today is exactly the same as not voting at all. When a third party actually becomes viable, and I deeply hope that that will happen someday, then it will become less of a Hobson's choice, and more one of clear alternatives from which to choose!

Not voting, although one vote will never decide any national election, not voting is denying your franchise as a citizen; and when large numbers of people choose to deny their franchise, democracy starts to fail!

Voting will become a much more democratic process and much less of a politically manipulated process, when we eliminate the electoral college and go to a simple majority of the popular vote rules system! I hope this is soon!
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 10/08/2008 :  16:22:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
bng said:
Voting will become a much more democratic process and much less of a politically manipulated process, when we eliminate the electoral college and go to a simple majority of the popular vote rules system! I hope this is soon!

We don't need to eliminate the electoral college, we just need to mandate runoff elections. You have a runoff between the two top vote winners until one person wins a minimum of 50.01% of the vote total.

If all states were required, from a federal law, to also apportion electoral votes by congressional district, things would be a bit more fair as well.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9453 Posts

Posted - 10/08/2008 :  19:11:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by bngbuck
Voting will become a much more democratic process and much less of a politically manipulated process, when we eliminate the electoral college and go to a simple majority of the popular vote rules system! I hope this is soon!

Also, the elections should be set up so that if one candidate don't get more than 50,0% of the votes, there's a second showdown between the two candidates that has the most votes.
Several democracies have this setup.

It's just a suggestion anyway. My country has a different system where this setup isn't applicable.



Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
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"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

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Collateralmurder.
Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 10/08/2008 19:12:40
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3733 Posts

Posted - 10/08/2008 :  20:53:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
bngbuck wrote:
Robb, many people feel that way and have for many, many years over many, many elections! But all of them, including you, miss the point.

The way the system is now, a citizen has to choose between the Democrat and the Republican political philosophies. Not on a graven-in-stone permanent basis; but on an election by election basis. No other choice makes sense other than Democrat or Republican!

No thinking person will find an exact equity between the positions of the two parties, whether it's on positive aspects or negative. So it should be possible for anyone of nominal intelligence to carefully assess the strengths and weaknesses of Repub versus Dem, and decide which way to go at each election.

But to take a position to vote for a third alternative today is exactly the same as not voting at all. When a third party actually becomes viable, and I deeply hope that that will happen someday, then it will become less of a Hobson's choice, and more one of clear alternatives from which to choose!

Not voting, although one vote will never decide any national election, not voting is denying your franchise as a citizen; and when large numbers of people choose to deny their franchise, democracy starts to fail!

Voting will become a much more democratic process and much less of a politically manipulated process, when we eliminate the electoral college and go to a simple majority of the popular vote rules system! I hope this is soon!
I totally disagree with the idea that voting for a third party is the same as not voting at all. It is recorded, and if enough people do it, even if the third party doesn't win (although they sometimes do in smaller elections) they can impact elections and thus influence politics. It is every American's right and obligation to vote with their best conscience. I think Robb stated his explanation pretty articulately and I can't blame him for the way he feels about this. As thrilled as I am about how a black President would positively influence the way black men are stereotyped in our culture, when Barack Obama speaks, I can't help but realize that he is just another moderate, calculating, compromising Democrat, and not at all what I want either. We all have to do what we decide is best. Good for anyone who thinks it through and then votes. Voting is never wasted unless the elections are rigged.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

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