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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25977 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2008 :  00:42:15  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This thread is for posting comments about the SFN article “Quantum Age Water” Please try to keep posts on topic. Only registered users may post comments.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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Ob1
New Member

3 Posts

Posted - 11/13/2009 :  00:39:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ob1 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi, just a quick note for the moment; while the logic is good, I think it's missing the point in that the device ( did you ever pick one up & try it by direct observation?) on a subjective level, seems to lower the surface tension of the water. I may be incorrect, but in this case surface tension is a distinctly different property from that of specific gravity. I found that argument to have jumped to conclusions.
I have not as yet subjected treated vs untreated water to instrumentation; that would be welcome, from those qualified to do so.

On a double blind test with numerous people, this type of device seems to do something to notably smooth out the taste of whatever it is stirred in. I don't understand what property is at work with it, similar in results with the Grander Water penergizer- but I have to report that something is indeed happening.

Whatever,it makes things taste better, the cats prefer it too.

For another perspective, look up the work of Dr Imoto with his micrographs of water. This is not off topic, though the emphasis is on another property of water. Fascinating!

When all else fails, try direct experimentation...

"The significant problems we have cannot be solved at the same level of thinking with which we created them."
Albert Einstein
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13458 Posts

Posted - 11/13/2009 :  02:42:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ob1

Hi, just a quick note for the moment; while the logic is good, I think it's missing the point in that the device ( did you ever pick one up & try it by direct observation?) on a subjective level, seems to lower the surface tension of the water. I may be incorrect, but in this case surface tension is a distinctly different property from that of specific gravity. I found that argument to have jumped to conclusions.
I have not as yet subjected treated vs untreated water to instrumentation; that would be welcome, from those qualified to do so.

On a double blind test with numerous people, this type of device seems to do something to notably smooth out the taste of whatever it is stirred in. I don't understand what property is at work with it, similar in results with the Grander Water penergizer- but I have to report that something is indeed happening.

Whatever,it makes things taste better, the cats prefer it too.

For another perspective, look up the work of Dr Imoto with his micrographs of water. This is not off topic, though the emphasis is on another property of water. Fascinating!

When all else fails, try direct experimentation...

You have provided no links. What double blind study? Source?

Also, The letter writer, Beth Thomlinson, did use the device. She said it did nothing at all. That would count as direct experimentation, right? The problem is that even if she thought it did do something, there doesn't seem to be any research to back up the claim and both hers and your opinion, once you tried it and liked it, would only count as anecdotal evidence. That kind of evidence is too weak to support the claims the manufacturer is making.

As for Dr Imoto, again, you should provide a specific link.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 11/13/2009 :  02:44:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ob1
For another perspective, look up the work of Dr Imoto with his micrographs of water. This is not off topic, though the emphasis is on another property of water. Fascinating!
Wasn't he the kook who claimed that projecting negative emotions could change the molecular shape of water? Fascinating that anyone would fall for such an obvious hoax. He did have those pretty photos, though. You just had to believe they were what he said they were. It reminds me a bit of the story of the idiots who hooked a polygraph machines up to a plant and then tried to claim that they proved plants respond to human emotion.

You say when all else fails to try direct experimentation. But when no one can replicate the results of an experiment with such astounding claims, then the reasonable presumption is that it wasn't honest experimentation but fraud.

And welcome to the SFN.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 11/13/2009 17:50:45
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 11/13/2009 :  02:48:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil
As for Dr Imoto, again, you should provide a specific link.
Oh, prepare to be impressed:
From Mr. Emoto's work we are provided with factual evidence, that human vibrational energy, thoughts, words, ideas and music, affect the molecular structure of water, the very same water that comprises over seventy percent of a mature human body and covers the same amount of our planet. Water is the very source of all life on this planet, the quality and integrity are vitally important to all forms of life.

The body is very much like a sponge and is composed of trillions of chambers called cells that hold liquid. The quality of our life is directly connected to the quality of our water.
He sells all manner of products for getting your water molecules straightened out, naturally. He's diagnosed the essential problem with human wellness and found the cure both within his lifetime. How many great men of science and medicine can legitimately claim such an accomplishment? I'm going to say still 0.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 11/13/2009 02:50:06
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13458 Posts

Posted - 11/13/2009 :  12:21:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by H. Humbert

Originally posted by Kil
As for Dr Imoto, again, you should provide a specific link.
Oh, prepare to be impressed:
From Mr. Emoto's work we are provided with factual evidence, that human vibrational energy, thoughts, words, ideas and music, affect the molecular structure of water, the very same water that comprises over seventy percent of a mature human body and covers the same amount of our planet. Water is the very source of all life on this planet, the quality and integrity are vitally important to all forms of life.

The body is very much like a sponge and is composed of trillions of chambers called cells that hold liquid. The quality of our life is directly connected to the quality of our water.
He sells all manner of products for getting your water molecules straightened out, naturally. He's diagnosed the essential problem with human wellness and found the cure both within his lifetime. How many great men of science and medicine can legitimately claim such an accomplishment? I'm going to say still 0.



Oh yeah, that guy. Why is it that so many of the woo "scientists" are marketing stuff? And directly targeted at the "New Age" community? (Those were rhetorical questions, of course.)


Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25977 Posts

Posted - 11/13/2009 :  12:39:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ob1

On a double blind test with numerous people, this type of device seems to do something to notably smooth out the taste of whatever it is stirred in.
Describe this test, please. How was "smooth out" defined in the methods?
I don't understand what property is at work with it, similar in results with the Grander Water penergizer- but I have to report that something is indeed happening.
The Grander technology probably does absolutely nothing, seeing as how the salespeople rely on nonsense ideas like the "internal structure" of water being re-arranged. There doesn't appear to be a single double-blind study on it, either, and what they promote as "results" suffer from all sorts of procedural and logic problems.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 11/13/2009 :  17:50:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The only proven way to noticeably improve the taste of water is to make people pay more for it.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 11/13/2009 17:50:53
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Ob1
New Member

3 Posts

Posted - 11/14/2009 :  23:31:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ob1 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi all, glad to see at least I've given you endless glee. Working 7 days a week & it was my error to dash something off in the middle of the night with no references. I shall have to report myself to the thought police!
Anyway, as I put in there somewhere it was a subjective evaluation, perhaps that wasn't made clear enough. We did informally do a double blind test ( yes, we know how to conduct one) among about 20 people to date. True, there is a lot of marketing that takes place & I've seen a lot of gullible people taken in by stupid stuff in the 'newage' movement... ( don't even get me started about the election process, or the financial state with whoever's running the show in government either oblivious to the lessons of history, or intent on systematically destroying the country by doing the opposite of what would help America- I know, off topic)
The observations were offered as they were. Take them, leave them, whatever. We'll keep enjoying our better tasting water, thank you. It is a curious phenomenon that I'd like to understand better.

"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality."
-Albert Einstein

"The significant problems we have cannot be solved at the same level of thinking with which we created them."
Albert Einstein
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25977 Posts

Posted - 11/14/2009 :  23:41:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ob1

Anyway, as I put in there somewhere it was a subjective evaluation, perhaps that wasn't made clear enough. We did informally do a double blind test...
Apparently, it was so informal and subjective that you can't even say what "smooth out" means. I suspect that you have exactly no ability to describe in any concrete terms what "better tasting water" means, even though you believe you drink it.

How about this: in your allegedly double-blind test, what did you use as a control? Was it just tap water, or was it water treated in some other fashion?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Ob1
New Member

3 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2009 :  04:47:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ob1 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
yes Dave,
used the identical well maintained RO water both treated & untreated, identical glasses, participants were given no expectations or tips, yadda yadda yadda.
The perceived differences include that of mellower taste, softer water, disappearance of any sharpness as a relative thing. When I get a chance will test to see if there is any difference in reading ppm of dissolved solids but have not had time to do so. I would like to read up on the measurement of surface tension to see if there is some empirical test I could devise.

what part of 'working 7 days a week' don't you get? It kinda cuts into your day.
Never mind. It's 3:45 Am local time; really don't have time for this conversation.

"The significant problems we have cannot be solved at the same level of thinking with which we created them."
Albert Einstein
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13458 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2009 :  09:24:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ob1:
what part of 'working 7 days a week' don't you get? It kinda cuts into your day.
Never mind. It's 3:45 Am local time; really don't have time for this conversation.

Is there a reason for the attitude? Dave's comments and questions were reasonable, and it was you who started this discussion. When you post on a skeptic site with a questionable claim, expect questions and observations.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25977 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2009 :  09:54:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ob1

The perceived differences include that of mellower taste, softer water, disappearance of any sharpness as a relative thing.
Yeah, that's the reason I would have used softened water as a control.
When I get a chance will test to see if there is any difference in reading ppm of dissolved solids but have not had time to do so.
Are dissolved solids a way to measure taste?
I would like to read up on the measurement of surface tension to see if there is some empirical test I could devise.
We've got plenty of stuff that reduces surface tension. Like detergents. You might want to look up information on how the manufacturers of wetting agents measure their agents' ability to wet things, rather than re-inventing the wheel.
what part of 'working 7 days a week' don't you get? It kinda cuts into your day.
Never mind. It's 3:45 Am local time; really don't have time for this conversation.
Now this, coupled with your earlier mention of "thought police," lead me to think that you believe you are being persecuted. I "get" that you have a busy life, but there's no reason to be snotty and neurotic about it here.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Boron10
Religion Moderator

USA
1264 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2009 :  09:58:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Boron10 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ob1

what part of 'working 7 days a week' don't you get? It kinda cuts into your day.
Never mind. It's 3:45 Am local time; really don't have time for this conversation.
I, too, have a very hefty work load and don't have as much time to devote here as I'd like.

Dave's not demanding a response right now, we'd just like one when you have time (within reason, or course).

It seems like he's asking very simple questions about your methodology, so if you can find time in the next few days we'd appreciate if you can answer our questions. Or, even better, if you know of a peer-reviewed article demonstrating the efficacy of this water treatment, please link to it!
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Hawks
SFN Regular

Canada
1383 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2009 :  15:15:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Hawks's Homepage Send Hawks a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ob1
We did informally do a double blind test ( yes, we know how to conduct one) among about 20 people to date.

Do you think you could describe how your informal tests were conducted?

As I'm sort of interested in statistics, I'd be keen to know how you performed any statistical analysis of the data you aquired in the process. Could you help?

As an aside, you said:
the device ( did you ever pick one up & try it by direct observation?) on a subjective level, seems to lower the surface tension of the water.


This might seem like a silly question, but how would you know, on a subjective level, if there is different surface tension in water?

METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden!
Edited by - Hawks on 11/15/2009 15:17:45
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